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Hello all, I have seen a few posts about drillings before, but I can't find any like mine. Most seem to have two shotgun barrels and one rifle barrel, but ours is the opposite. My wife's grandfather gave us this rifle. He claims that it is from 1890, but in my own research I can't find anything that would indicate a year (or value). The details are as follows:

Two 9.3x72R rifle barrels over a 16 ga. shotgun. It has two external hammers and a third lever that makes the right hammer fire the shotgun. The markings on the top of the barrels say J. Sackreuter (right barrel) and Frankfurt A/M (left barrel). On the underside of the barrels, you can see these proofing marks: on the shotgun barrel, some kind of bird (let's call it an eagle) next to a crown S, an eagle next to a crown W, a crown U with no eagle, an S by itself, a 16 next to a 16 in a circle, and on the side of the barrel it says 2g Sch.P NA over 27. g BL. On each of the rifle barrels, it says 118/35, a crown U under an eagle by itself, an eagle with a crown G, another eagle with a crown G further up the barrel next to what appears to be serial numbers? 13861 on the right, 1902 on the left.
There are engravings all over the gun. No pictures or anything just patterns, but they are intricate and appear to be in good condition. The stock has no cracks in it. I can't tell if it was refinished, but if it was, it was a long time ago. The bottom of the stock has a shield shaped hole behind the sling mount that my wife's grandfather had filled with silver by a jeweler (for $200 apparently). The blueing is in great condition given the age of the gun. If it was redone, I can't tell, but I'm not an expert. The barrels lock into place with a very satisfying firm snap and the gun has zero rattle at all. The sights look like they were repainted many years ago. The rear sight is blue with a white triangle and the front has an iron sight and a pop up white dot. There are scope mounts but I do not have the scope.

Any info that anyone can provide would be helpful. I also have a very old looking box of ammo that is in German on one side and French on the other. There is a date on the package but it just says CQ 715. Is that July of 1915? Or maybe May of 1971? It looks really old but the label is in great condition so I don't know.
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Some of them marks make no sense.

2 grams of Sch Powder, Nitro
27 gram plain lead bullet

A 31 grain powder charge under a 417 grain bullet?? For a 9.3??

Although, that might be the shotgun load. Hmmm. 31 grains of some type of smokeless under 15/16 ounce of shot? That kinda sounds like a 16 gauge.

Best as I can tell, it was made between 1891 and 1912. There was no proof law before 1891, so all those lovely marks wouldn't be there. And after 1912 they didn't list the powder anymore.
 
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Discussion Starter #4
Those markings are on the shotgun barrel so that would make sense if it is referring to the 16 gauge. I appreciate the help with the year. That definitely narrows it down a little.
 

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That is a fine example of the gunmaker's art!
Yeah I really want to shoot it, but I don't want to use the box of old ammo. I have another box of more modern 9.3x72R, but the casings don't fit in the barrel. They all stop about 1/4" from seating all the way. The old ammo fits like a glove. I wonder what they changed in the modern ammo. The new box is all in French so I have no idea what it says haha.
 

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How about a picture of the two side by side? There’s obviously some difference between the two. Do you have a set of calipers to take some measurements?
 

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Discussion Starter #8
How about a picture of the two side by side? There’s obviously some difference between the two. Do you have a set of calipers to take some measurements?
Here are the two side by side. Both rounds are the same diameter just before the rim. What appears to be the case is that the new ones reach that diameter about 1/4" before the rim. The old ones are approx 10.4 mm where the new ones are 10.6 mm.
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Just for giggles, take a sharpie type marker and cover the bullet on the new round with ink. The. Place it in the chamber and when it bottoms out give it a little spin, then pull it out and have a look for any marks. Looks to me like the ogive (curve of the bullet shape) is different. Also I’m assuming you’ve tried both barrels yes? I hope someone else can be of more help for you.
 

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Good idea. Looks like it's about an inch from the rim. Idk why they would. Be different, but oh well. I'll have to get some new ammo. I really am curious about the value of the gun. Does two rifle barrels make it more (or less) valuable than the reverse?
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I don't know squat about drillings, but why would the two rifle barrels be the same caliber? I would think two different rifle calibers and one shotgun
 

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What you have is a "doppelbuchsedrilling" or, in English, a "double rifle drilling. Here's a link you can browse to your hearts content and absorb all kinds of things you didn't know you needed or wanted to know.

http://www.germanhuntingguns.com/about-the-guns/gun-types/

First your ammunition. During the period of that firearm there was at least four, 9.3 X 72R cartridges and all were different. The way you describe and picture your cartridges entering the chamber then stopping about 1/4 in. short is classic. The German firearm industry was "Normalized" just before WWI but as should be obvious that little dust up set back any real "normalizing" of German cartridges until after the war. The 8.15 X 46R and 9.3 X 72R were among the first to be normalized because they were probably the two most popular cartridges in Germany at the time. To have a firearm from that era that won't chamber modern ammo is not surprising.

It might be worth investing in a box of Sellier & Belloit, 9.3 X 72R ammo and see if it will fit.

The only way to know precisely which cartridge you have is to make a chamber cast and compare it to known dimensions. That is easily done in a break action firearm.

The old adage is "alter the ammo, not the rifle" and in this instance it's easily done. You have ammo that fits, just use it as a guide or check with CH-4D Tool and Die, give Dave the dimensions of the ammo that fits and he might have a set of dies on the shelf. It could happen that you'll have to turn off a few thousandths at the head of the modern ammo to make it fit. There are those who will frown on that but it's out of ignorance. It can be done easily and safely.

J. Sackreuter was more than likely just the retailer. His shop was in Frankfurt on the Main River, Frankfort, Au Main. I suspect the DBD is a product of Suhl in Thuringia and was made for the trade. It doesn't appear to be from the Zella/Mehlis area to me.

Actually all the proofs make perfect sense. The proof load is ON THE BARREL FOR WHICH IT WAS PROOFED!!!! Why would anyone put a rifle proof on a shotgun barrel, especially the Germans?

What you're calling an eagle is jokingly referred to among aficionado's as a "squashed bug". It's simply the Imperial Eagle so you're more correct. The crown over S is the proof mark identifying it as a smoothbore barrel, the crown over W means the barrel is choked but the degree of choke is never mentioned. The 2 grams and 27 grams is the charge with which the shotgun barrel was proofed and the Bl is for lead shot. The 16 is the bore and the circled 16 means it is chambered for 2 1/2 in. shells....and probably still is. Don't shoot modern 2 3/4 shells in it. 2 1/2 in loaded ammo is available from RST and others.

The rifle barrels, the crown over G is the proof mark identifying a rifled barrel. 118/35 is generally accepted to be the identification for one of the 9.3 X 72R cases. Which one it is, is up to you to identify. Is there a crown over an N anywhere on the rifle barrels? That would indicate definitive proof with smokeless powder. The shotgun barrel having been proofed with Schultz powder would lead me to believe the rifle barrels were also nitro proofed. Were the shotgun proofed with black it would have been Schwarz Pulver at 2 1/2 drams or about 70 grains.

The action itself is known as a "Roux" and sometimes called an underlever but that always confuses it with the Jones underlever, a British improvement of the Lefaucheux, French action of the 1830's. So, it's a Roux. If you call it an underlever you're wrong. It has double under bites and with the dolls head extension into the top of the standing breech is more than strong enough for the 9.3 X 72R and 16 bore. The right trigger is also a single set trigger and the screw between the triggers is for adjusting the two lever, set trigger, sear engagement. To set it, push the trigger forward.

Sadly the scope rings for the claw mount bases rarely accompanied the firearm. They can be made by New England Custom Guns but first you must choose a scope. Then they will run you about $700 for starters.

I don't believe the front or rear sights are original to the firearm. That white triangle in the rear sight and the pop up night sight are very British innovations. I have never, ever seen a German firearm of that era with either sight. They are available today but we're talking over 100 years after that DBD first saw the light of day.

If the bores are any good at all you have a very desirable firearm. Your wife's grandfather has been very generous with you. It has significant value. First off, it's a double rifle. They don't come cheap in and of themselves and, it's chambered in an excellent medium game cartridge, the 9.3 X 72R. Add the ideal shotgun bore of 16 beneath two rifle barrels an you have what is one of the 3 or 4 most versatile hunting firearms ever conceived by the mind of man. Were it mine I wouldn't consider any less then $5,000 and that would have to be on a very bad day for me and a very good day for the buyer. I can only wish I would be so fortunate as you!!!!!
 

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Ok...S&B is what you have. That was not known when I wrote the post. You'll have to modify the ammo.

George, a drilling with two different rifle barrels and one shotgun barrel is a 'Bockdrilling". Both it and the DBD were made, neither in significant numbers.

Again, the link

http://www.germanhuntingguns.com/about-the-guns/gun-types/
 

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Wow! Thank you for that information. Printing it as we speak to keep with the gun haha. I will look for the crown over N that you mentioned, but I doubt there will be one since I have been poring over every inch of it since I got it looking for info about it. Also to be totally transparent, I bought it from my wife's grandfather for $2500, he didn't actually give it to me free of charge. I was just curious as to the investment that I made. He collects odd guns with odd backgrounds and he offers most of them to me before he sells them to someone else. Again, thank you so much for the information. It is exactly what I was looking for!
 

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Probably the best place on the web for information on German firearms is here. When I got bit by the bug I joined the Assn. If nothing else, the publications are worth the tariff.

http://www.germanguns.com/upload/forum.php

If someone on that board doesn't know it, it probably isn't known. If you go there and someone gives you information contradictory to what I posted, believe them.

At $2500 you did well, very well. A good, conventional drilling by a known maker, Sauer, Kreighoff, et.al., will run you that much. I would love to meet your wife's grandfather. Sounds as if he and I are cut from the same bolt of cloth. If he's into old, obscure and weird stuff and making it go bang he should be able to help you with the ammo.

Edit: Next time he has something like that you aren't interested in I'd sure like to know what it is!!!!!!!!
 

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Oh yeah he lost most of his collection in a house fire a few years ago, but he is slowly rebuilding his new collection. The last thing he sold me was a purple (actually TCN finish) IWI desert eagle in .50AE with a 10 inch barrel and a nikon scope. It is truly ridiculous. He had a shotgun that I wish I had the cash to buy from him a few years ago. It was a double barrel shotgun with 3 triggers and a trapdoor on either side of the gun. You loaded each trapdoor with a 12 ga. shell and once you fired both barrels, you pulled the third trigger and pulled the barrels forward. This ejected the two spent shells, raised the bottom two shells into position, and cocked the gun. Then you slid the barrels back over the new shells and you were ready to fire. Never seen anything like it. Apparently it was designed by someone in Northern California in the 50's or so and I think he sold it for a good chunk of change. I will keep you in mind if I come across any other oddities that he is looking to part with haha.
 
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