[chillydk147]

Hello, this is my first post, I'm not sure if I'm in the right section, I recently found a Musket Handgun, it was found while digging my backyard, it has since been cleaned up and I was wondering if anybody could shed some light on it, I assume it's from the 1700s, It was found in Ireland if that may help.

 

[sharps4590]

Wow...amazing condition for having been buried. I believe your century is correct, 1700's. Unless someone recognizes the handgun it is probably impossible to identify. Did any stampings such as perhaps proof marks survive the "burial and resurrection"? If so they could help.

First time I ever heard one referred to as a "Musket Handgun" as musket denotes a long gun.

 

[chillydk147]

Wow...amazing condition for having been buried. I believe your century is correct, 1700's. Unless someone recognizes the handgun it is probably impossible to identify. Did any stampings such as perhaps proof marks survive the "burial and resurrection"? If so they could help.

First time I ever heard one referred to as a "Musket Handgun" as musket denotes a long gun.

Thanks, it got a good cleaning hence the good condition, I don't know much about guns and always assumed that a gun loaded this way was a musket, it belongs to an Aunt of mine so I'll have to get in touch to set if there are anymore markings

 

[sharps4590]

Anything loaded from the muzzle is a muzzleloader first. What type depends on a lot of things. Muskets are smoothbore long guns generally meaning a military arm such as the Brown Bess, French Charleville, and the various "contract muskets" on through the year series of muskets in the US. Then there is rifled muskets generally to take the Minie' ball. Beyond military arms the naming of muzzleloaders is vast. Kentucky rifle, fowling piece, Plains rifle, Trade gun, sporting rifle, ad infinitum. Generally those names denote a particular style or type.

 

[chillydk147]

Anything loaded from the muzzle is a muzzleloader first. What type depends on a lot of things. Muskets are smoothbore long guns generally meaning a military arm such as the Brown Bess, French Charleville, and the various "contract muskets" on through the year series of muskets in the US. Then there is rifled muskets generally to take the Minie' ball. Beyond military arms the naming of muzzleloaders is vast. Kentucky rifle, fowling piece, Plains rifle, Trade gun, sporting rifle, ad infinitum. Generally those names denote a particular style or type.

Thanks, I've been in touch with my Aunt, she says the only writing is "Nomine Domini" on top of the gun which is latin for "The name of the lord". I don't think this helps much, perhaps it was a presentation gun only to be displayed but never used? Thanks for the info on Muskets, is it correct to call it a flint lock gun?

 

[sharps4590]

Yes sir, it is assuredly a flintlock. Hopefully some of the others will chime in on this with more insight than me.

 

[chillydk147]

Yes sir, it is assuredly a flintlock. Hopefully some of the others will chime in on this with more insight than me.

Hopefully, although I found this page, these guns have the same inscription but look to be replicas made at later "1900" - http://www.invaluable.com/auction-l...istols,-italian,-in-18th-c.-5302-c-573c4b3ae8

 

[Grizzley1]

I believe it to be more modern than the 18th century, I think it's an early 20th century tourist piece.

 

[chillydk147]

I believe it to be more modern than the 18th century, I think it's an early 20th century tourist piece.

So if they are not signed "Gerolamo Campegli" then they are most likely replicas as he I believe was an 18th century gunsmith, would this be correct?

 

[Grizzley1]

Back in the 18th century the engraving wouldn't have been cast into the barrel, the wedding bands wouldn't have been turned on an engine lathe and the lock retaining bolts wouldn't have been modern machine made wood screws installed from the wrong side of the lock.

So, yes it is a replica made in modern times using modern equipment.

 

[chillydk147]

Back in the 18th century the engraving wouldn't have been cast into the barrel, the wedding bands wouldn't have been turned on an engine lathe and the lock retaining bolts wouldn't have been modern machine made wood screws installed from the wrong side of the lock.

So, yes it is a replica made in modern times using modern equipment.

Thanks for your answer, this seems to clear things up

 

[chillydk147]

Thanks for your answer, this seems to clear things up

Just got an update, the wood screws which I think you are referring to were modern replacements put in place as part of the clean up process, I also found out that it was found beneath a foot or so of earth in a river bank, what are these wedding bands that you have mentioned?

 

[Grizzley1]

At the transition from octagon to the round section there is a "wedding band" on an original hand made barrel it would have been made using hand files, yours is lathe turned.

I manufacture black powder barrels, I know what a modern made barrel looks like as opposed to an original hand made barrel.

And modern replacements or not, those wood screws are not how a lock would have been attached to the stock on an original or even a quality replica of one, it would have had bolts passing through the stock from the other side of the lock plate at the front and top center of the lock that threaded into the lock plate.

Yours has wood screws at the rear and bottom center holding it from the lock side. Sorry to disappoint you but your antique isn't an antique, it's a low cost modern replica, does it even have a touch hole in the barrel? If not then it's a non firing replica.

If it was found buried in the mud of a river bank, I suspect someone buried it there and not very long ago, riverbanks are notorious for destroying wood and wrought iron in a relatively short time.

 

[chillydk147]

At the transition from octagon to the round section there is a "wedding band" on an original hand made barrel it would have been made using hand files, yours is lathe turned.

I manufacture black powder barrels, I know what a modern made barrel looks like as opposed to an original hand made barrel.

And modern replacements or not, those wood screws are not how a lock would have been attached to the stock on an original or even a quality replica of one, it would have had bolts passing through the stock from the other side of the lock plate at the front and top center of the lock that threaded into the lock plate.

Yours has wood screws at the rear and bottom center holding it from the lock side. Sorry to disappoint you but your antique isn't an antique, it's a low cost modern replica, does it even have a touch hole in the barrel? If not then it's a non firing replica.

If it was found buried in the mud of a river bank, I suspect someone buried it there and not very long ago, riverbanks are notorious for destroying wood and wrought iron in a relatively short time.

Hi sorry for late reply, I had to get a hold of the gun to take better photos, perhaps these photos would to better determine the guns origin.

 

[sharps4590]

Is there a touch hole through the barrel at the lock pan?

That wood has some amazingly sharp edges for having been buried very long and there other "somethin's" that don't look right.

 

[Hawg]

Is there a touch hole through the barrel at the lock pan?

That wood has some amazingly sharp edges for having been buried very long and there other "somethin's" that don't look right.

If that had been buried around here for even ten years there would be no wood left and the iron would be badly rusted and pitted.

 

[chillydk147]

Is there a touch hole through the barrel at the lock pan?

That wood has some amazingly sharp edges for having been buried very long and there other "somethin's" that don't look right.

Here is a photo of the area you mentioned, I think it has

 

[sharps4590]

I don't see a touch hole through the barrel. I believe Griz is right.

 

[chillydk147]

I don't see a touch hole through the barrel. I believe Griz is right.

Ok, so Non-Firing Replica is the determination?

 

[sharps4590]

I believe so. Given where the barrel and pan are lining up if it had a touch hole it would have to be drilled straight into the breech plug or some weird forward angle which would not be conducive to good ignition. The rear of the barrel should be closer to the hammer so the touch hole would enter not the breech plug but the actual breech area....in addition to all the things Griz mentioned.