Options for self defense ( 1 2 3 4 5 6

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by ruffitt, Feb 25, 2003.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. ruffitt

    ruffitt *TFF Admin Staff* In Heaven Now

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2003
    Messages:
    2,872
    Location:
    Sparta, MI / Now In Heaven Also
    17th FA Bn
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 17
    (8/30/01 7:47:09 am)
    | Edit | Del All Options for self defense
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    In Ohio we have no CCW law. I often work in some very bad areas. Any Ideas for defensive weapons? If I'm in my car I try to leave room to get out if I have to. I am not very happy with mace or pepper gas, they can have as much effect on ones self, as the attacker, and may not work quickly enough.

    LIKTOSHOOT
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 2064
    (8/30/01 7:52:46 am)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options for self defense
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I would check your laws concerning the carrying of a folding defensive knife or one of those extendable metal batons, then learn to use it. LTS
    "am not" R2

    Spanish Cruffler
    Member
    Posts: 80
    (8/30/01 7:59:15 am)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options for self defense
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I keep a two foot long piece of 3/4 inch rebar under the front seat of my truck - it has come in handy before. Missouri doesn't have concealed carry either - we are in the same boat.

    the real fredneck
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 281
    (8/30/01 8:18:14 am)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options for self defense
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    a very smart man once told me, "a good knife is always handy especially when it's sharp"

    shooter45 us
    *Senior Chief Moderator*
    Posts: 834
    (8/30/01 8:39:53 am)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options for self defense
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The knife and metal baton are good ideas if you know how to
    use them. As far as carrying a weapon in a bad area, had you rather be caught with it or without it.




    gpostal
    Moderator
    Posts: 578
    (8/30/01 8:40:01 am)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options for self defense
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    of course if you don't want to ccw anyway ,i used to work in the worse part of stl possible {north grand by the water tower}
    i always covered all angles

    a screwdriver in the air-conditioning vent ,can be handy ,still legal
    a tire tool under the seat ,legal
    a mag light ,in a mag light belt holder attached to the seat belt, legal

    9mm and a .357 ,oh i wont go there

    mace can buy a second but it really makes a person mad more than anything in a car the fogger is best in my opinion
    stun guns are a joke ,i kinda like'em

    carrying ccw when it is illegal has that obvious draw back,that's a decision you have to make

    Zigzag2
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1034
    (8/30/01 8:49:06 am)
    | Edit | Del
    ezSupporter
    Re: Options for self defense
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Nothing MORE dangerous than a DULL knife
    I personnally like my Maglight... it came in handy 1 time

    Robert Harden
    Member
    Posts: 12
    (8/30/01 11:24:44 am)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options for self defense
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Hey I say carry a defensive weapon if you need to or want to, just don't get grabby if stopped by the boys in blue. Keep em where we can see em. Nothing worse than walking up on a vehicle to someone "reaching" or "hidden hands". If its a weapon you have hid, I always appreciate being told by the driver that they are indeed carrying, no surprises. I search alot of vehicles with my K-9, so either way its found, but this way I feel like a person has good intentions, and not trying to pull a fast one over with concealed weapons. Just my opinion...

    Living Life as a K-9 Officer / EagleWolf Forum

    Discussion topics about Law Enforcement and anything related

    - Everyone welcome.


    bondai
    Moderator
    Posts: 435
    (8/30/01 12:10:39 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options for self defense
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Robert: I can appreciate your position as a LEO. Are you implying that it is OK for this person to carry a gun in his car ?As long as he notifies the police if stopped, or are you referring to pepper spray or some other non-lethal defense item ?

    Here is a small bit of info that I retrived from the Ohio Statutes...


    § 2923.16 Improperly handling firearms in a motor vehicle.
    Text of Statute


    (A) No person shall knowingly discharge a firearm while in or on a motor vehicle.


    (B) No person shall knowingly transport or have a loaded firearm in a motor vehicle in such a manner that the firearm is accessible to the operator or any passenger without leaving the vehicle.
    (C) No person shall knowingly transport or have a firearm in a motor vehicle, unless it is unloaded and is carried in one of the following ways:


    (1) In a closed package, box, or case;

    (2) In a compartment that can be reached only by leaving the vehicle;

    (3) In plain sight and secured in a rack or holder made for the purpose;

    (4) In plain sight with the action open or the weapon stripped, or, if the firearm is of a type on which the action will not stay open or which cannot easily be stripped, in plain sight.
    (D)(1) This section does not apply to officers, agents, or employees of this or any other state or the United States, or to law enforcement officers, when authorized to carry or have loaded or accessible firearms in motor vehicles and acting within the scope of their duties.


    (2) Division (A) of this section does not apply to a person if all of the following circumstances apply:

    (a) The person discharges a firearm from a motor vehicle at a coyote or groundhog, the discharge is not during the deer gun hunting season as set by the chief of the division of wildlife of the department of natural resources, and the discharge at the coyote or groundhog, but for the operation of this section, is lawful.
    (b) The motor vehicle from which the person discharges the firearm is on real property that is located in an unincorporated area of a township and that either is zoned for agriculture or is used for agriculture.


    (c) The person owns the real property described in division (D)(2)(b) of this section, is the spouse or a child of another person who owns that real property, is a tenant of another person who owns that real property, or is the spouse or a child of a tenant of another person who owns that real property.

    (d) The person does not discharge the firearm in any of the following manners:
    (i) While under the influence of alcohol, a drug of abuse, or alcohol and a drug of abuse;


    (ii) In the direction of a street, highway, or other public or private property used by the public for vehicular traffic or parking;

    (iii) At or into an occupied structure that is a permanent or temporary habitation;

    (iv) In the commission of any violation of law, including, but not limited to, a felony that includes, as an essential element, purposely or knowingly causing or attempting to cause the death of or physical harm to another and that was committed by discharging a firearm from a motor vehicle.
    (3) Divisions (B) and (C) of this section do not apply to a person if all of the following circumstances apply:


    (a) At the time of the alleged violation of either of those divisions, the person is the operator of or a passenger in a motor vehicle.

    (b) The motor vehicle is on real property that is located in an unincorporated area of a township and that either is zoned for agriculture or is used for agriculture.
    (c) The person owns the real property described in division (D)(3)(b) of this section, is the spouse or a child of another person who owns that real property, is a tenant of another person who owns that real property, or is the spouse or a child of a tenant of another person who owns that real property.


    (d) The person, prior to arriving at the real property described in division (D)(3)(b) of this section, did not transport or possess a firearm in the motor vehicle in a manner prohibited by division (B) or (C) of this section while the motor vehicle was being operated on a street, highway, or other public or private property used by the public for vehicular traffic or parking.
    (E) The affirmative defenses contained in divisions (C)(1) and (2) of section 2923.12 of the Revised Code are affirmative defenses to a charge under division (B) or (C) of this section.


    (F) Whoever violates this section is guilty of improperly handling firearms in a motor vehicle. Violation of division (A) or (B) of this section is a misdemeanor of the first degree. Violation of division (C) of this section is a misdemeanor of the fourth degree.
    (G) As used in this section:


    (1) "Motor vehicle," "street," and "highway" have the same meanings as in section 4511.01 of the Revised Code.

    (2) "Occupied structure" has the same meaning as in section 2909.01 of the Revised Code.

    (3) "Agriculture" has the same meaning as in section 519.01 of the Revised Code.

    (4) "Tenant" has the same meaning as in section 1531.01 of the Revised Code.

    (5) "Unloaded" means, with respect to a firearm employing a percussion cap, flintlock, or other obsolete ignition system, when the weapon is uncapped or when the priming charge is removed from the pan.







    Robert Harden
    Member
    Posts: 13
    (8/30/01 8:40:16 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options for self defense
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    pepper spray or other is what I meant to insinuate, but alot of people think that just because they have a concealed carry permit they can just get on down the road so to speak. I'm saying let us know, stay within the boundaries of the law, but just let us know. Deception to me is a factor I take seriously.

    Living Life as a K-9 Officer / EagleWolf Forum

    Discussion topics about Law Enforcement and anything related

    - Everyone welcome.


    gpostal
    Moderator
    Posts: 586
    (8/30/01 9:22:30 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options for self defense
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    sorry officer Harden i disagree with telling you i have a gun ,if you are just pulling me over for speeding there is no need for you to know i have a gun ,i have no intent on using it on you so you don't need to know about it,why turn a 75.00 speeding ticket into a long drawn out arrest ,i have been pulled over several times and asked if i had weapons or drugs ,of course my answer is no .so it ends there , i am not carrying a gun for cops ,i carry one for the same reason you do to protect me ,in addition you are not carrying your family around in your cruiser ,i am

    i do agree with keeping your hands in plain sight ,if it is night turn on your dome light ,i do not make any sudden moves,and do not go toward the glove box without letting the officer know why i am doing it first ,over all be polite ,odds are you did somethign stupid take the citation like a man

    i did get caught once in fifteen years ,went home loaded another one ,it wound up getting thrown out of court because they really didn't have a reason to search my car ,boy were they p.o'ed when i showed up with court papers to get my gun back

    once i was frisked by a officer ,put in his back seat ,then issued a citation ,the whole time i was carrying a loaded S&W model 36 ,he passed right over it , every time i see him i want to tell him so he would be careful in the future ,but i know he wouldn't welcome it ,even thought it has been 13 years

    bondai
    Moderator
    Posts: 438
    (8/30/01 10:05:02 pm)
    | Edit | Del Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I live in Arizona and it is a shall issue state for CCW. I have had a CCW since the law was first passed. I have been stopped twice by DPS. Both times I was asked if I had any weapons in my truck. It seems to be a pretty standard question for an Officer to ask considering the current state of affairs in this country.

    Both times I answered yes, I am carrying a concealed weapon. I was asked if I had a permit. I showed the officer the permit along with my DL and other required paperwork. Never a problem, never even got a ticket. I just feel that it is easier to tell the officer the truth than to have him find out by accident that I am carrying a concealed weapon. It could turn out bad for everyone.

    I have had confrontations with Law enforcement officers when I was younger. But it was always better to level with the officer than it was to try and deceive him. Nobody likes to be lied to. I don't think it is an issue of whether or not its the cop's business if you are carrying a weapon but more of an issue of personnal safety for all involved. It is very easy for an innocent traffic stop to turn ugly if the officer feels threatened. Just my opinion.

    gpostal
    Moderator
    Posts: 589
    (8/30/01 11:09:39 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    but if you lived in a state without permits and you were ccw ,i think you would see it different

    officer :do you have a gun
    me :no

    over and done with

    officer :do you have a gun
    me: yes

    arrested ,charged with illegal use of a firearm or possible worse charges ,out bail money ,car impounded ,have to pay a lawyer outrages fee's ,possibly lose my license , job and a heck of allot off my hard earned money and time in jail and court ,and loose your right to own a gun all because a cop doesn't want to be lied to

    when you get pulled over would you tell the officer if you wasn't wearing a seat belt ,NO
    oh by the way officer i had a few beers earlier


    it would only turn ugly if i was stupid enough to pull the gun out ,no safety issue involved unless you get stupid ,don't make the officer feel threatened take your ticket and go home

    the times ccw has saved my life ,more than once ,i will be damned if i loose my right to own fire arms because of a speeding ticket and had to be "honest" to a police officer


    if you ever lived in a area or worked in one were gang members was car jacking and murdering people on a regular basis ,and you felt strongly about ccw for your life ,you would see it different ,if you think you should tell a cop you are caring a gun when it is illegal ,you shouldn't be carrying one in the first place

    above post i told about getting frisked while ccw ,if i was to have gone to jail that day i would have first put my hands up and let the officer know
    i was sitting in the back of his cruiser un handcuffed with a.38 special loaded with +p hollow point bullets and a few extra rounds ,that was a close call for both of us ,i got a speeding ticket and went on , he give me a speeding ticket and went on,
    only i knew what could have happened, to this day he doesn't have a clue ,i would like to tell him for future use ,maybe he would be more careful ,but i can't he would just think i was being cocky ,when i would tell him for his personal safety

    now i live in a area i can carry a gun in my truck legally ,but i don't anymore because i don't have to

    Robert Harden
    Member
    Posts: 14
    (8/31/01 12:52:16 am)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    well said on your point of view bond, I agree. postal, I live in a ccw state, and I get to carry a weapon for obvious reasons anywhere I go, so I may take that for granted. Some of you may not have that luxury obviously. Some people have no business carrying, and its for those reasons, some states make laws against it. so I can see both sides, of course I favor towards mine. :)

    As far as asking if you have weapons etc? I ask alot. And if you say "no", I search. If you say "yes" I search. Either way with me I find out, unless you refuse consent. At which point I use my K-9, but thats a different topic. So if I search and I find it, and you were honest, I'm reasonable, I'm alot more likely to understand your point of view. But if you say "no", and I learn different, it's a definite go straight to jail card. You see some laws are more enforced than others. And if I respect someone for being a straight up honest hard working individual, and I know its a bad part of town, I'm more likely to tell you to get on home. But lose that respect, and its a complete different story.

    This one is tough, I'm not saying I condone breaking the law, but I'm human, I understand a lot of things and different situations. Course they're not all like me. :)

    Living Life as a K-9 Officer / EagleWolf Forum

    Discussion topics about Law Enforcement and anything related

    - Everyone welcome.


    gpostal
    Moderator
    Posts: 590
    (8/31/01 7:56:16 am)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    you can't tell me ,someone actually has told you yes ,and you didn't arrest them

    many of you here might remember a long while back on gb ,we were in a thread about police officers violating peoples rights, and i used this type of tactic as a example ,and none of you believed me

    so if a person says "no" p.c. search car
    say yes ,well that's obvious

    now how many cars do you search in a weeks time ? out of those cars how many do you find contraband and arrest?
    if there is ONE person that said no ,and you searched their car and found nothing ,you violated their civil rights

    AntiqueDr
    Moderator
    Posts: 688
    (8/31/01 8:35:27 am)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Got to weigh in, here. Postal, are you inferring that a person's civil rights depend on whether or not there is something they are hiding? I would think the right to unreasonable search and seizure would be the same, whether you had contraband or not.

    The Supremes have hashed this one several times. Most states have pretty liberal search laws for motor vehicles, both for officer safety and in an effort to fight drug trafficking. I did my time as an LEO back in the early 80's, right here in Houston. The Jamaicans and the Columbians had just arrived in town, and I worked single-man patrol in the thick of it. This was also when the Pontiac Fiero debuted with the stereo speakers in the seats - if you left one unattended for more than 30 seconds it was gone!

    Anyway, when I saw a "likely suspect" driving around I would swing in behind them until they made some sort of traffic violation. Doesn't take long. Either the chase was on, or we pulled over. Subject would be asked if they had any drugs or guns, they'd say no. They got searched anyway, for my safety. Driver got arrested for something? Now everything and everybody got searched.

    Who are the "likely suspects?" Well, aside from the obvious gang-banger types (look like a duck, quack like a duck, etc), in that area if I saw a white male driving anything LESS than the speed limit on a major road he was a suspect. 9 out of 10 times he was looking for (1) a hooker (2) crack or (3) a hooker WITH crack. And yeah, if they had a pistol they were gone whether they told me about it or not. If they told me, it just took less time to find it.

    Here in Texas, if you have a CHL and are carrying a pistol, you are required by law to present your CHL with your drivers license when asked by a LEO. The officer has the right to disarm you for the duration of the traffic stop (or whatever). Failure to declare can result in revocation of the CHL. Those that dont have a CHL are in the same boat as those folks I stopped way back when...

    We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!



    gpostal
    Moderator
    Posts: 593
    (8/31/01 8:43:47 am)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options for self defense
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    searching for officer safety is a good excuse ,but how many innocent people do they go through to catch one ,1 in 10 ,1 in a 100, one in a 1000 , so violating some ones rights is ok as long as once in awhile it results in arrest

    LIKTOSHOOT
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 2075
    (8/31/01 8:45:08 am)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    In following this thread, several things bother me. I agree with most, but disagree with some. The question of guns in the car intrigues me. This is much like the drugs in the car question. This to me is a way to create suspicion, "per rules of engagement" and bothers me. I have been stopped several times in the last few years(never ticketed). If I have been stopped for a traffic violation, thats what it should involve....was there a reason you were speeding??? A straight and honest answer would be given to the officer, if he then ask me about guns or drugs....this to me is an attempt to create suspicion of me and enter the probable cause excuse. "He looks guilty" I have not been asked either of the above and would decline to, also. I have been ask to search my car, I declined.....a battle ensued. I was nice, never rude. When I declined, an attitude was promply taken by the officer(DPS) Understand, this was a stop for no infraction...interstate trolling as I call it. He stated he could do as he wished since I had decline to be seached and this gave him suspicion to do so, I did not agree and hit the power lock button and closed the door. I was then placed in the crusier. He radio`s for a dog. The K9 unit shows up along with a higher ranking officer. He questions me and I relate the stop and that if this goes any further, I will file a complaint as every right granted me has been violated. I was then placed back in the crusier and taken to the JP, where he brow beat the officers and advised them of "MY" rights and they had none. This type of tactic used in the war on drugs sickens me. I see people everyday consent to these illegal searchs, because they are affraid to question their very rights granted to them. I have the time and am to old to take or put up with this type of crap.....I will go downtown in a heartbeat and not be intimidated by law enforcement. I will not surrender my rights to anyone and law enforcement is included in that group. If you stop me for an infraction and I have done it, write me a ticket.....move on. Do not ask me about drugs, guns, contraband or to search my vehicle. You do not have the right!!!! LTS
    "am not" R2

    gpostal
    Moderator
    Posts: 594
    (8/31/01 9:10:09 am)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    BRAVO LTS

    hey doc ,consider this

    you are on your way to a out of town gun show ,one problem your off/on ramp takes you through a bad part of town,you get pulled over ,you are totally innocent ,ok we know what is going to happen you go through the motions {because you know you are doing nothing wrong} ,well they find the cash ,say fivethousand dollars ,you are going to use for gun purchases to stock your store , they see it as drug money ,they arrest you for something minor confiscate your money ,not only are you going to miss the show your money is now tied up for the next six months ,and you are going to have to spend another 2500.00 in lawyers fee's ,so you get your money back ,you pay the lawyer ,your out 2500.00 ,and the money you would have made from that week-end

    i know of a person this actually happened to on the way to a antique auction







    Edited by: gpostal at: 8/31/01 9:59:37 pm

    AntiqueDr
    Moderator
    Posts: 690
    (8/31/01 9:39:41 am)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Wait a second. They dont have the right to ask you a question? Sure they do. You choose whether or not to answer, that's all.

    Understand that no warrant is required to search the passenger compartment of a vehicle in Texas. Only probable cause. The officer should have been able to demonstrate probable cause for the initial stop. If he can't, then that is a problem since any evidence found during a search would be inadmissable (called "The Fruit of a Poisonous Tree").


    We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
    www.apaxenterprises.com

    Xracer
    Moderator
    Posts: 843
    (8/31/01 9:46:45 am)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Wow! Gritty subject here!

    First....I'm an ex-cop. Upstate NY and central Connecticut. I've also been a "civilian" with a CCW, so I can see both sides of the story.

    Granted, thing are a lot more dangerous now than they used to be, but the idea that a person exercising their constitutional rights against an illegal search, is probable cause for such an illegal search, is ludicrous!

    Mr. Hardin: "if you say "no", I search. If you say "yes" I search. Either way with me I find out....."

    Try reading this...www.nara.gov/exhall/chart...ution.html ......you might learn something.

    AntiqueDr
    Moderator
    Posts: 692
    (8/31/01 10:12:13 am)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The 4th Amendment to the Constitution protects individuals from "unreasonable search." The word "illegal" does not appear.

    Now, are we saying that it is UNREASONABLE for an officer to conduct a search of a suspect and the area immediately available to that suspect, to ensure that officer's safety? Is it UNREASONABLE that the officer does not want to be surprised by the gun that comes up from between the seats or out of the back pocket? And if something is found during that brief search - uh oh, bad on you!

    Searching trunks, locked cases, etc, is a different story. Secure the suspect, and if you have probable cause to do so then obtain a warrant.

    Bottom line, I guess, is this. If it is illegal to carry a gun, or dope, or a dead hooker in the trunk, whatever, then DONT. Work to change the laws in your area; I'll help if I can! (Except for the dope and dead hookers part.)

    We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
    www.apaxenterprises.com

    gpostal
    Moderator
    Posts: 597
    (8/31/01 10:32:10 am)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    but that's just it doc they take it to far they search and strip out the whole vehicle ,i believe 100% in the officers safety but this practice is just to take advantage of search and seizure laws ,this crap didn't go before they started allowing seizure of property ,ok so they take a guys home and car because it was purchased with drug money,but those cases are few ,so we want that new armored vest for the dept. find every teenager with a joint take their car {or their parents car} and sell it at auction ,in no time we can get those new radar guns ,in the mean time we violate a person a week in the process

    legal pirates is what this has become ,all in the sake of the war on drugs

    we all moan and groan about amendments we want to protect ,but turn a blind eye on part of it because it is not on our agenda
    / . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ))) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

    Edwin Paul Thomas
    Member
    Posts: 1
    (8/31/01 10:52:02 am)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options for self defense
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    17th FA Bn,

    Your best weapon is your mind. If you have a mind set to survive an encounter then you most likely will. It looks to me as if you have been given several options, from the screwdriver in the vent to the tire iron under the seat. Your options is the key to you mind set of survival. Have a plan, make it work, throw in all the "what ifs" and practice it, learn it, go over it, and know it. The more you do so the less your brain will have to overload it when stress takes over.

    Edited by: Edwin Paul Thomas at: 8/31/01 11:53:05 am

    AntiqueDr
    Moderator
    Posts: 694
    (8/31/01 10:55:20 am)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I don't think I'd strip the seats and door panels out of a car without a damn good idea that drugs were in there. Certainly not routinely.

    Now, as far as the property seizure deal goes. I have absolutely no problem with it. Might motivate a parent or two to find out what their kid is doing.

    How much dope is OK to have in your car, anyway?


    We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
    www.apaxenterprises.com

    LIKTOSHOOT
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 2078
    (8/31/01 11:04:09 am)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    This is going to be a grand thread. Love those "click" words, kinda like "children." Reasonable-Unreasonable?? The key word here is "ask" and if answered "why." This charaid has been placed upon so many, most think it`s ok. Probable cause, give me a king size break. That term has been so loosely defined, you can make up your own story later. I live in a small town and get to see many of the [reasonable causes]

    Improper interstate speed, 68mph in a 70mph interstate. Looked suspicios, should have been traveling faster.

    Touched the shoulder line or striped line, (called weaving, only done once).

    If you are asking(and they do ask) to search your car, if you agree....you have given up your rights.....it is that simple. If you say no, you are a suspect that needs to be searched. Do it to me......I dare you. In the last ten years I have been in front of the CLEO, JP, or others for these random searchs that I have denied and in each case.....won.

    You see that question is a trick placed on the ignorant.
    Can I search your car?......Is there a correct answer??? NO!

    Probably cause is the most abused two words that exsist and are used against non-criminals everyday. I also notice that some are profilers......thats also a good "probable cause" No it`s not. This reminds me of the 60`s and early 70`s....when I had long hair and drove a van......must be a doper....search van. This is when I learned at an early age, screw you. Get a warrant, I`ll wait.....until then.....STAY THE HELL OUT OF MY VEHICLE!!! This has all become normal, from the war on drugs. Say what you will, but my stance will always be firm......and don`t ask for my SS# when filling out the ticket either....your not getting it from me. You have my DL, DL Number and my DL picture, I don`t work for you and your not paying me, so get over it. Just keep giving up your rights.

    Now, for those LEO`s out there, understand this. I have the greatest respect for the job you do. But this is a career you choose...it`s dangerous work. If you approach a car thinking otherwise....it could cost your life. Do not remove my rights to protect yours.....you ask for this line of work. Just because I won`t "let" you do something does not make me a criminal, it just means I ain`t going for it....just because you say so. LTS
    "am not" R2

    Robert Harden
    Member
    Posts: 16
    (8/31/01 12:33:18 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I'm not going to say another thing till I speak with my attorney. lol.

    First of all X, you mis-read and quoted me wrong. I ask, if you have weapons or contraband. If they answer, YES or NO, I search either way. I should have said I will ask for consent either way. I follow that question with consent. So I need not understand or re read the constitution.

    I stop for a violation, never for "profiling". If I see something suspicious, I may look for a violation. Several times I have followed, got no reason or probable cause, and turned off. As far as searching X. I search everybody, I do not pick and choose. I search male, female, old, young. I have found drugs on all sorts, and in all categories. I ask for consent, if its given I run my dog thru and they go on their way. If it's refused, I run the dog on the exterior, if no alert by the K-9, they go on their way. If the dog alerts, I search, and am within my legal right to do so. Its hard to explain the law, when its depth is so great. I do NOT violate anyones rights!

    Some of this may be hard for you guys to understand, you may have had a bad experience with a police officer, but we're not all &*$#. I try to treat everyone the way I would like to be treated, unless you prove yourself otherwise, by lying, being rude, or having a battle of "I no the law better than you" mentality. I try to do whats right 100% of the time. Am I perfect? Far from, but we're doing a job, that most could not do or want to, and we get judged by everyone that can read a book and think they have been mistreated. We make decisions in a second, for officer safety or others safety, and we get tried by everyone who gets hours, weeks, and months, to pick apart that decision. Their are some bad police officers, but their are bad people in every profession. I try to do my best, and I sleep comfortable every night knowing that I'm doing the best I can.

    Postal, I won't go into what I have and have not arrested before. But I can tell you, that with me, a persons character carries alot of weight. Thats me.

    Can't we all just get a bong? LOL.

    Living Life as a K-9 Officer / EagleWolf Forum

    Discussion topics about Law Enforcement and anything related

    - Everyone welcome.


    gun runner john
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 244
    (8/31/01 1:39:38 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I live in PA, and there is no requirement that I tell an officer that I'm carrying. If he asks, I'll most likely tell him that I have a permit and I am carrying. If he doesn't ask, I just keep my hands on the wheel until he asks me to do something else. I agree that he shouldn't have to guess if I'm going for a weapon, but he also doesn't need to know that I'm legally carrying if I'm no danger to him.


    AntiqueDr
    Moderator
    Posts: 695
    (8/31/01 2:29:09 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I'll do one better. For a while ('83 or '84, I think) we had a big problem with the crack dealers using bicycles. Faster than a man on foot, can outmaneuver a car in the inner-city. A stretch of Crane St right off Lockwood was crack-central, so ANYBODY on a bicycle in that area got stopped. Off the bike, do a patdown search. Find a ball of something in a pocket...bingo! On the way downtown, I'd also write them a ticket for no bicycle registration.

    So, do bicyclists have the same right to privacy you claim for your automobiles? If not, why not?


    We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
    www.apaxenterprises.com

    LIKTOSHOOT
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 2080
    (8/31/01 3:09:56 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Could it be you answered your own question.

    Ticket for no registration, my cars and trucks are registered and therefore I have proof of ownership and that is private property

    Although I am interested in hearing about the pat down and might could be coaxed into that
    "am not" R2

    Robert Harden
    Member
    Posts: 18
    (8/31/01 3:18:38 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Search and seizure laws are fun. =)

    Some circumstances will allow a search of an automobile without a warrant, private property, titles, or not. =P

    LIKETOSHOOT
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 2082
    (8/31/01 4:34:01 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Don`t skirt the issue at hand.....I`m interested in the pat down part. Tell sniffy to back off and have a kibble.
    "am not" R2

    Robert Harden
    Member
    Posts: 20
    (8/31/01 5:45:38 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    You tell sniffy, and more than likely, you're his kibble. lol

    Living Life as a K-9 Officer / EagleWolf Forum

    Discussion topics about Law Enforcement and anything related

    - Everyone welcome.


    LIKTOSHOOT
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 2089
    (8/31/01 6:23:46 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Well sniffy should know a small tidbit of information of me, before he(she) considers me a kibble. I have over 30 years with large doggies (Gray Ghost`s and Rotts to be exact) and know how to take one down.....so inform him of that so he`s(she`s) not alpha`d.............
    "am not" R2

    TallTLynn
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1830
    (8/31/01 6:54:01 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Not to be rude Mr. Harden - but in this state a cop following a person more than a certain number of blocks without putting his lights on and pulling them over - pretty much loses the right to do so unless the car/truck you are following all of a sudden does something that violates a law.

    Or in other words try the following shit here and you could lose your job.

    Last time I looked I am not required to tell you I have a CCW permit if pulled over - especially if I don't have a gun on me at the time. You also do not have the right to search my vehicle - with or without your dog unless I give you permission.

    If your state has managed to circumvent laws I grew up with - okay that's fair for you. Stay out of my state please - don't need anymore gung ho cops here.

    LIKTOSHOOT
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 2092
    (8/31/01 7:01:23 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    GOD I LOVE WEMMINS, SPECIALY ****TL****, keep da dog in da car......no sniffin, lest he(she) wants a bent nose...
    "am not" R2

    AntiqueDr
    Moderator
    Posts: 701
    (8/31/01 7:02:59 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Actually, T, I'm the one talking about doing the following.

    And when they broke the law, I stopped them.

    I image that even in Idaho they have drug-sniffing dogs. If you refuse consent to search your vehicle, fine, but you can't refuse to allow the dog to do a walk-around. If he alerts, then I cant think of any magistrate that would not issue a search warrant. Some states allow the search of the passenger compartment of a vehicle based on probable cause alone. All states allow "plain sight" searches, to my knowledge.

    I dont think this gentleman is particularly gung-ho (although I probably was, back in the day). He is just telling like it is.
    We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
    www.apaxenterprises.com

    gpostal
    Moderator
    Posts: 602
    (8/31/01 7:14:40 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    dog gives you the sign ,PLEASE!!!!! WHAT A CROCK OF BULL
    who's to say what the sign really is

    ------------------------------------------------------------
    {And if you say "no", I search. If you say "yes" I search.}

    Search and seizure laws are fun. =)

    {Some circumstances will allow a search of an automobile without a warrant, private property, titles, or not. =p}

    AND THESE TWO STATEMENTS SICKENS ME

    TallTLynn
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1833
    (8/31/01 7:14:43 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Ah AntiqueDr - I can refuse to allow them to search my vehicle. Yes I might end up in jail for awhile but it would be worth it for the principles involved.

    Unless I have so violated the law they have the right to arrest me already I don't have to allow them to search my car - that and I trust few people, and even fewer cops. There are a lot of good ones out there - but all it takes is the few skinhead, bootjacked thugs who are cops also to make them all look bad.

    Would someone please take the California cop school rejects out of my state?

    AntiqueDr
    Moderator
    Posts: 703
    (8/31/01 7:33:31 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Welllll, I dont know about Idaho, but you can dang sure get arrested for traffic violations down here... A citation is like a personal recognizance bond - a promise to appear in court.

    Anyway, you can refuse all you want. Probably will get searched anyway, because the officer knows exactly what he/she is going to need to get that accomplished. The good news is that unless you've given them reason, most aren't going to go through the hassle.

    How about this? LEO stops a vehicle for traffic (speeding, no turn signal, whatever). Window rolls down and the smell of marijuana comes seeping out. Probable cause, yes or no?

    (pssssstttt, T, got a letter in the mail today...)

    We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
    www.apaxenterprises.com

    TallTLynn
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1834
    (8/31/01 7:41:37 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    AntiqueDr - first glad you got the letter.

    Second, probable cause is one thing - and if they smell something like marijuana then I do believe they can legally search the vehicle (but since dad's in Florida these days I no longer have a prosecutor to ask these questions of).

    I'm talking about cops following you just because they don't like the way your vehicle looks and the like - we've had a lot of that around here. Usually some young cop wanting to look important (and most of them are a-holes unfortunately). If they are polite to me - I'll be polite to them. If they are not then while I'm usually still polite to them I become very uncomunicative. I also make sure I get their badge number, their name and right it all down while I'm talking to them - you'd be amazed how few care to see that happen.

    I still will not allow someone to search my vehicle (partially because after owning the stupid car for 2 years I'm still pulling spent casings out from under the seats and so forth from the last owners. And I don't even own a .357!

    AntiqueDr
    Moderator
    Posts: 704
    (8/31/01 8:00:04 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    SSSSsssooooooooooooo, they can search if the HUMAN smells the pot... but not if the dog smells the pot....



    (LTS, now I know why you like stirrin' so much. It's fun!)

    We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
    www.apaxenterprises.com

    LIKTOSHOOT
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 2097
    (8/31/01 8:02:03 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Sorry, hard habit to break.....(like I care)
    "am not" R2

    TallTLynn
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1834
    (8/31/01 8:19:43 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Well if the human smells the pot when you roll down your window to talk to him - then he's got probable cause.

    What probable cause would he have without that to do a run through of your vehicle with a dog?

    Get the facts of what I said straight Doc - we're talking apples and oranges here from where I sit.

    And on that note - see ya all later time to pack lots of weapons and ammo into the trunk of my car. Going to go party this weekend with oldguide!

    AntiqueDr
    Moderator
    Posts: 706
    (8/31/01 8:25:23 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I've got them straight. I said a walk-AROUND with the dog, not a walk-THROUGH.

    Have fun!


    We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
    www.apaxenterprises.com

    gpostal
    Moderator
    Posts: 603
    (8/31/01 8:44:52 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    dog gives you the sign ,PLEASE!!!!! WHAT A CROCK OF BULL
    who's to say what the sign really is


    BlackGun
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 503
    (8/31/01 8:57:15 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    This post needs to end........! Everyone has an opinion. "Fact" But, everyone is getting pissed. That's not US. So let it go! I could quote you the law from the code of criminal procedure and the penal code, But no one would listen, so, I won't waste my time! In my 500+ post, I've never seen us act like this. We're not on Gun Brokers GENERAL DISCUSSION ANY LONGER FOLKS..............!
    rules for survival: Sight alignment, Breath control, & Trigger Squeeze
    BlackGUN

    AntiqueDr
    Moderator
    Posts: 708
    (8/31/01 9:07:43 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I prefer my dogs to wear neon signs. BLUE neon.

    hehheeeheee
    We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
    www.apaxenterprises.com

    TallTLynn
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1835
    (8/31/01 11:02:58 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    BlackGun my dearest friend - I'm not pissed at anybody. Trust me you'd know if I was mad. But this subject is one that will always produce strong feelings on all sides.

    For me I truly believe that the vast majority of police officers are good men and women.

    AntiqueDr

    Robert Harden
    Member
    Posts: 21
    (8/31/01 11:25:30 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I checked this forum this morning, and now in the evening so much has been said I don't know which part to respond to. I do however agree with blackgun the most. One post from one is not going to change the opinion of the other. But let me clarify one thing that I am getting misquoted on. Re-read this post.

    "As far as asking if you have weapons etc? I ask alot. And if you say "no", I search. If you say "yes" I search. Either way with me I find out, unless you refuse consent."

    Read the last four words. UNLESS YOU REFUSE CONSENT. I will not search without probable cause or consent. I will walk my dog around the car, however. An alert is probable cause, and thats all the way up to the Supreme Court, not just here or there.

    At any rate, I'm done, sorry for causing a big confrontation. I tried to be helpful in the beginning, and join in. But apparently some of you would much rather take out your frustrations on a police officer in the forums because one either gave you grief on the street or your just a disgruntled citizen. I am NOT that cop, I am undeserving of your stress. I go to work trying to make a difference....keep guns out of the hands of gang bangers, and dope out of your childrens hands. Thats why I ask consent, thats why I search. My intentions is not to violate your rights, or make you late going home. TALL, that is what my "shit" is. Trying for a better place to live, if that makes me gung ho, or a rookie, or power trip cop, then so be it. I'll take that title. And as far as knowing how to take down my K-9.... All I can say is.....whats your problem? lol. I'm outta here. You people are too wound up, I can deal with this next time I go 10-8. I certainly don't need it when I get home. Later days....

    Living Life as a K-9 Officer / EagleWolf Forum

    Discussion topics about Law Enforcement and anything related

    - Everyone welcome.


    Edited by: Robert Harden at: 9/1/01 12:26:20 am

    TallTLynn
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1837
    (8/31/01 11:35:52 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Now Robert Harden - I'm not accusing you of being one of the gun ho type cops. They are in all reality few and far between which I thank god for.

    Your style of writing and my style of reading are obviously different enough that I didn't catch it all. I read the first postings and didn't read your response later - therein lies part of the problem here.

    I know that as an officer if you have probable cause you can force a search - I'm just saying I don't necessarily agree with some of the probable cause I've seen used to search.

    Believe me I'd not say anything about your dog doing a walk around - in fact I'd probably be watching the dog more because I thought he was good looking and admiring him than anything else. Love animals but not to sure I like the way they used to be trained to do their job for narcotic purposes (however, that was a long time ago, and far, far away).

    Please don't take any of this as criticism. Yes, some get a little het up - but it is to be expected. Like I said to BlackGun - if I was pissed - everybody and their uncle would know it in a heartbeat. I think what I did was walk in the middle of this and spoke my mind without engaging my total brain capacity - shame on me.

    T out.

    AntiqueDr
    Moderator
    Posts: 709
    (9/1/01 5:39:29 am)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Hey, Robert, dont take all of this to heart, man! Good, spirited debate is what makes a board interesting. If everybody agreed all the time, life would be boring.

    I used to do the job, but that was a long time ago when things were a little different. I have my opinions, and I have absolutely zero tolerance for narcotics of any type. Might even be classified as a "hardass."

    Anyway, I think we've got GP spinning so much he's actually drilling a hole in the earth where he stands.


    We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
    www.apaxenterprises.com

    Xracer
    Moderator
    Posts: 849
    (9/1/01 7:50:53 am)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Mr.Hardin....don't take any of this personally! This is just a good spirited debate. We give each other sh*t all of the time and still remain friends!

    God! What a dull place this would be if we all agreed with each other!

    Stick around and stick to your guns! I think that you'll find that you disagree with a particular person on some subjects, and agree with him (or her) on others.

    Just remember, sometimes it's best to be wearing your Kevlar vest and a nomex/steel mesh athletic supporter.

    gpostal
    Moderator
    Posts: 604
    (9/1/01 8:17:58 am)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    your right doc that kind of thinking does pi$$ me off ,black gun is right also we need to end this thread

    but of course i have to say one more thing

    officer harden ,your last statement you wrote that everyone is pi$$ed of at you because another cop had done us wrong

    and you are probably correct in this statement ,however
    I am NOT that cop


    couldn't be further from the truth with statements like this ,you are that cop


    {And if you say "no", I search. If you say "yes" I search.}

    {Search and seizure laws are fun. =)



    and the first time you wrote this down you did not write
    UNLESS YOU REFUSE CONSENT


    ,i was not on another page nor did i read it wrong ,that was copied from your words ,and you are correct you shouldn't have to take this crap when you get home from work because you deal with it all day

    i don't know how these things get out of hands {the searching} ,i believe it might be a product of the way the system has to work, little by little it has worked its way up to what it is ,and some officers don't realize what they are actually doing ,its kind of like anything in our lives we slowly get used to things and accept them ,believe me officer harden i have the same ideals about getting the streets clean as you do ,but the people you are working to protect shouldn't be violated in the process,i don't mean the ones you catch and arrest i mean the ones you search and don't have a damn thing ,those are the ones that have been violated
    as far as the dog goes yes we all know it holds up in court,but who is to say YOU told the truth about the dog

    i will end my dispute in this subject now ,officer harden stick around ,your initiation is over ,we might learn something from each in the future


    me and polish have went around and around about politics but there is not much i wouldn't do to help him either ,just because we don't agree that Reagan wasn't that great of a president ,no reason we cant get along,
    i am sure you have thick skin in the profession you are in ,we both are po'ed about the subject ,lets agree to disagree ,and go on about something else






    Edited by: gpostal at: 9/2/01 1:57:11 pm

    LIKTOSHOOT
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 2099
    (9/1/01 9:06:58 am)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Unbelievable, a hot topic with a mix of humor. Then the crying starts and the fun is over. We all go home and lick our little wounds, dang! How petty.....I guess we have become less than tolerate of other peoples opinions and views. We now, no longer care to debate or listen to others......that to me is funny. Why would someone ask for this topic to end??? afraid some of us might learn something, I am really amazed, when a topic heats up and has humor added........WOAH!!! back off, it`s getting out of control. If a statement is made and you stand behind it......so be it, I respect you for it. But to say end it or no fair......well??? LTS
    "am not" R2

    AntiqueDr
    Moderator
    Posts: 710
    (9/1/01 9:18:56 am)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I would imagine that the statement "Search and seizure laws are fun", especially with the smiley face (Robert, check out the Emoticons), was most definitely tongue-in-cheek and referred to the fact that it is supremely difficult to keep up with the court decisions regarding that most-contested issue. He did not say that "Search and seizure is fun" which is what I believe GP took him to mean.

    GP's big problem with the dog issue is that the majority of dogs are trained to alert with a subtle gesture that may not be noticeable to those not familiar with that dog. That is done on purpose so the suspects being searched do not know that "the jig is up" before the officer can gain tactical superiority. A properly-trained dog's alert should be duplicable under controlled circumstances, at any given time. Perhaps we should petition the police canine association to adopt a specific alert, say, with the dog standing on his front paws and farting the theme from 'Old Yeller."

    (I've been waiting all thread to get that one in. Damned if I'm going to let it end before I do.)

    Anyway, I believe this is this forum's first experience with a hot-topic debate. Man, was it fun.


    We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
    www.apaxenterprises.com

    TallTLynn
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1841
    (9/1/01 9:27:11 am)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    AntiqueDr. - lol my man you did wait all this time to lay that one on us. Cute, very, very cute.

    None of us should take offense at threads like this - we are not all going to agree on tactics, beliefs, who to vote for (believe me we'll end up disagreeing come election time again), law enforcement and the like. That's why we are a melting pot in this country. We thrive on diversity - it made this country strong.

    I may not agree with everything that was said here - but I'm not going to go crying one way or the other over it. I misinterpreted what was said in the beginning and apologized for so doing. I thought parts of it were pretty dang funny and parts were very informative.

    gpostal
    Moderator
    Posts: 608
    (9/1/01 9:34:59 am)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    doc i don't mean ,the dog has given a sign ,i am talking about if he "really" did ,the dog might not hit on everything they are not perfect ,and when i got searched the dog was "supposed" to hit ,it was a bull$hit lie ,just a excuse to do what they want
    or did i forget "cops dont lie"


    the dog should fart the national anthem ,because it is the closest they can get to sh!t!ng on it

    Robert Harden
    Member
    Posts: 22
    (9/1/01 11:08:44 am)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Page 1, re-read my post "unless you refuse consent" it's there postal. Notice that their is nothing at the bottom of the post that says "edited by......."

    You guys say don't take this seriously. Go look at my posts. notice the " lol's , the =) " that means a person having fun. Oh, for those of you that don't know =) is a smiley face. Would it be easier for you guys to notice a smile if I put it in yellow? How bout if I make it REAL big so you can see?
    There, happy?

    Thick skin. Your dang skippy I have thick skin. Do you think this is something I have NOT heard before. Do you think that I don't hear someone screaming, yelling, or crying "my rights, I have rights you know, this is bullsh**" all the time? lol.

    Liktoshoot, your funny, your the funniest of them all. You think that because you handle big dogs you know how to take down my K-9. If my K-9 ever comes after you, it's because you've just commited a felony. Now when you "do your secret take down stuff on my K-9" and you hurt my partner. Remember I now have the original felony that got you there in the first place, and then the second felony

    §5-54-126. Killing animals used by law enforcement.

    (a)(1) Any person who, without just cause, purposely kills or injures any animal
    owned by or used by a law enforcement agency or any search and rescue dog shall be guilty
    of a Class D felony.

    Ssooooo, while your extremely busy trying to alpha dominate my dog, your also going to have a pissed off cop on your ass for trying to hurt his partner. Where's a ccw when you need it right. In short, the only thing your years with gray ghosts and rots are going to get you is a comfortable cot next to bubba that thinks your lookin pretty cute at 3 am in the morning when the lights go out.

    This thread could go on forever for all I care, but to tell you the truth, its much more fun going out and working extra shifts violating rights just to piss you pistol totin, we the people, right wing extremist group people off. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL! Say isn't there a "Deliverence" flick coming on that you would rather be watching.

    My partner and I tied for 7th place in the state narcotic competition this year, so as far as teaching him to fart the national anthem, nah....I'll just go with what works. Postal you sound like the guy that says "hey man, why you searching my car? I say, "well, my K-9 alerted on your passenger side door, thus giving me probable cause for a search." You say, "ohhh. bullsh**!!!! That wasn't alert! I'm calling my attorney, this is bullsh**, what's your name?" I say, "You'll get my name, badge number, and the last time I took a whiz on your citation." (as I pull out the pound of marijuana).

    I have heard it a hundred times over, we're never right, we're always wrong, and we can never explain it clearly enough for you people to understand. lol. I am having fun here guys, but lets drive on, or shall we flip a coin to see who gets to say the last word?


    Living Life as a K-9 Officer / EagleWolf Forum

    Discussion topics about Law Enforcement and anything related

    - Everyone welcome.


    AntiqueDr
    Moderator
    Posts: 711
    (9/1/01 12:34:08 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I think dogs have already been trained to fart the national anthem. Oh wait, that was Roseanne Barr...

    And I am MUCH funnier that LTS. Hmph!


    We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
    www.apaxenterprises.com

    Robert Harden
    Member
    Posts: 26
    (9/1/01 1:25:45 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Okay maybe you are a tad wee bit

    shooter45 us
    *Senior Chief Moderator*
    Posts: 844
    (9/1/01 1:37:55 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    OK, now it's time for another topic. On with the show.

    LIKTOSHOOT
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 2102
    (9/1/01 2:14:11 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    First, it`s not time for another topic
    Second....Not even close Doc!

    With all due respect, I disagree and will continue to. This farce lead down on the public, is just that. (never said I`d hurt skippy, but this is also used to add to the offenses of criminals defending themselves of the dog attacks) let him bite the crud of of you until I call him off.....yea right! I can bite too and am part Indian also......dog is good....yum-yum.

    If you were to stop me for a traffic violation, my question would be this to you. At what point do you ask these series of questions and why?

    Do you have any weapons?
    Do you have any drugs?
    Can we search your vehicle?

    I humbly await your responce

    Hummin a tune.....tappin da fingers to da beat....jukin the knee......waitin on theee.....well???
    "am not" R2

    Edited by: LIKTOSHOOT at: 9/1/01 10:04:22 pm

    Robert Harden
    Member
    Posts: 32
    (9/1/01 9:34:26 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I ask when the urge settles in, and why? Because we're the POlice. lol! j/k

    I think it was said best by another poster, can't remember who....but its a combination of things. Visual clues, body language, things they say, how they act...... Are they nervous? Do they say they're coming from Wal-Mart when Wal-Mart isnt the way they came? Visibly shaken, nervous. Does the registration check back to Billy Bob, but he doesn't know who is on the registration? Lots of things may peek our interest, or raise suspicion. Ask them where they are coming from, and they say, "from a friend's house" You ask where his friend lives, but he doesn't know. So I can not say when or why. I'm not trying to pry or invade privacy just trying to determine if a person is trying to conceal something illegal. The ones that have nothing to hide, can answer these simple questions and go on home. The ones that show some type of clue or suspicion, will generally be asked for consent. The innocent people may be delayed some, but usually appreciate the fact that we are trying to keep a peaceful, drug free place to live. I've actually had some thank me for what we were trying to to. It's hard to explain when and why, thats just a basic idea.

    Living Life as a K-9 Officer / EagleWolf Forum

    Discussion topics about Law Enforcement and anything related

    - Everyone welcome.


    LIKTOSHOOT
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 2109
    (9/1/01 10:05:57 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    So twenty or so general, personal questions lead to the dreaded....guns, drugs, a can I search`ya car? See I believe most are nervous when stopped regardless of any wrong, because of the infered or otherwise presence of a law officer and the uniform. I deal with all branches here in Texas, from the local PD, to the Texas Rangers and find a great spread between those groups of officers.

    If you were to stop me and just based on your feeling, I might not be forthcoming.....and ask....do you have any weapons in your vehicle, I would answer no. (though I do) [ I consider this none of your business as to what my vehicle may contain] You don`t like the answer or feel it`s not forthcoming, so out comes the dog and he alerts on the trunk. You place me in the crusier and open the trunk. I have 1,000 rounds of ammo and six cased rifles, ya-de-ya-de-ya. Am I a bad guy??? For what reason? I`m on my way to hunting camp to sight my rifles in and do some plinking. I am now a bad guy in your eyes, because I did not wish to answer a private and "personal question" and should have no reason to do so. What has just happened?
    "am not" R2

    warpig883
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 366
    (9/1/01 10:45:01 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I answer all those needless and personal questions with outright lies or tell them it is none of their business.


    As far as your scenario LTS. You would probably go to jail (they can always find something) after all you had all those guns and buddits you lied about. The media would pick up on the gun runner who was apprehended by the police. They would mention the fact that you had a vehicle loaded to capacity with weapons and a portable ammuntion factory. Next BATF/FBI/JBT would blow up your house with you inside before they even knocked on the door. Heaven forbid they just send a letter saying "come to court"

    There is a precident for this, Ruby Ridge/Randy Weaver.

    Robert Harden
    Member
    Posts: 35
    (9/1/01 11:04:09 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    LTS, yes basically. Except my dog wouldnt alert on your rifles and ammo, unless you were taking a bit of marijuana to assist in sighting your rifles. lol.

    Do you also break out into a sweat when stopped by an LEO? There is a difference between normal nervous and the I'm guilty nervous.

    war....I'm sure some people do lie to LEO's, as you and LTS say you do, and get away with it. But us knowing that you do indeed lie to us, do you expect us to believe you when you say you'll appear in court?



    Living Life as a K-9 Officer / EagleWolf Forum

    Discussion topics about Law Enforcement and anything related

    - Everyone welcome.


    warpig883
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 368
    (9/1/01 11:15:27 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Innocent until proven guilty is something I truly believe in.

    I actually break out in a sweat and start shaking when I am stopped. Not shaking bad, but my fingers shake and my adrenalin really gets going. Don't know why, guess it's cause i have never been treated fairly by the cops. Whether I am going 4 mph over the limit or reported vandalism and theft of my property I always get the shaft.

    Enought of this negative stuff. LTS is having a party at TLynns place come on over.

    gpostal
    Moderator
    Posts: 609
    (9/1/01 11:44:11 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    (as I pull out the pound of marijuana). ya the pound you planted

    here i was all day thinking a was a little hard and should have been a little nicer ,and should have just said i disagree

    and you go saying crap like that

    i believe you are just upset because here on this from someone you can't harass , threaten and take to jail
    you are on internet forum and here your badge doesn't mean sh!t ,we are all here on equal terms and you can't take it so you resort to making stupid accusations

    Americas law informant at its best


    oo*"""**oo.oo*""*oo.
    oo*" ..........."*o.o*" ........*o.
    o" .................'o"................"o
    o ...................o ..................*o
    o .................... o.................... 'o
    o ...................... o..................... o.
    o ........................ o ......................o
    o......................... \o/...................... o
    o.........................--0-- .................... o
    o ........................ /o\ ...................... o
    o ...........................oo......................o
    o .......................... oo..................... o
    o.......................... oo..................... o
    oo........................ oo.................... o
    oo....................... oo.................... o
    'ooo.....................oo.................. oo
    o ""oo,, ....... ,,oO-'Oo,...... ,,,,,ooo..
    'o.................... oo.................... o
    o.....................oo................... o
    o..................... o...................o*
    o.................... o.................. o
    o....................o..................o
    o....................o.................o
    o....................o................ o
    o....................o.................o
    o....................o.................o
    You have just been e-mooned

    Robert Harden
    Member
    Posts: 37
    (9/2/01 12:59:39 am)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    cute postal, say... was that your big a$$?

    I wouldn't waste my pound of marijuana, that could get expensive. lol.

    Go have another beer and sleep it off big fella.

    Living Life as a K-9 Officer / EagleWolf Forum

    Discussion topics about Law Enforcement and anything related

    - Everyone welcome.


    gpostal
    Moderator
    Posts: 615
    (9/2/01 8:39:06 am)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    i think he might be hiding something in the back of his pants

    better stick your hand in there and see ,never can be to careful



    AntiqueDr
    Moderator
    Posts: 712
    (9/2/01 9:57:11 am)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    OK, I'm curious. Postal, in your opinion, what percentage of narcotics arrests are due to "planted" evidence?
    We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
    www.apaxenterprises.com

    Flhunter
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 289
    (9/2/01 10:26:38 am)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    OH DAM^ HERE WE GO AGAIN.....
    Guns don't cause crime anymore than flies caues garbage.

    gpostal
    Moderator
    Posts: 616
    (9/2/01 10:32:48 am)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    i cant say ,but the question is ,does it happen? ,if it happens once in ten years it is one times to many

    i dont belive it happens alot

    i have a friend of mine i went to school with ,the worst alchoholic you can imagine ,but still holds a job ,he got mixed up in a bad relationship ,and she told a cop {durring her arrest for violence} that he was into drugs

    he got pulled over by drug inforcment officer and was handcuffed while he was being frisked and the car was being searched ,one of them claimed to pull from his pocket a small bag of what apeared to be crack ,he was arrested ,taken to the police station ,and interogated for several hours ,they wanted him to tell them who was the "big guys" ,of course he knew the drugs wasn't his and just through a fit the whole time ,they told him it was bullsh!t ,but who is the judge going to belive ,they let him go

    i know he is drug free ,he works on hazmat team for the goverment and they random drug test all the time

    AntiqueDr
    Moderator
    Posts: 715
    (9/2/01 11:01:37 am)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I am glad to see that small concession.

    I had come to believe from the content and perceived tone of some of your posts to this thread that you might be so completely swayed by these anecdotal vignettes to have embraced anarchy as your preferred method of government.

    To refocus on a couple of statements, why shouldn't anyone become a police officer for $30K tops? (Patrolmen with any time at all make more than that in Houston, but anyway) Are you saying that no one should become a police officer, or are you saying that police officers need more money?

    The very nature of police work forces conflict with the perception of personal liberty. Those people who ARE doing wrong ALWAYS believe their rights have been violated (especially their 4th Amendment rights). Many, many cases - important ones, too - have been dismissed in court due to a 4th Amendment ruling. Many, many others have been affirmed over the defendant's protestations. Police develop methods to get their job done, within the law. Everytime you see a piece on the news about a cocaine shipment interrupted in transit, you think "Good job!" (right?) but in this thread you've done a 180. Why? Because the people being questioned turned out to NOT have dope, even though exterior circumstances pointed to the probability? I would suggest that until we convice all the criminals to wear signs so that police officers can tell the difference, the police are doing an overall great job, at great personal risk, for little thanks (and a lot of grief).
    We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
    www.apaxenterprises.com

    Robert Harden
    Member
    Posts: 42
    (9/2/01 12:50:37 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Antique can we be friends? Well said.

    You guys go ahead on this topic, sounds good, I need to comment on two things before I get back involved.

    1. It's best to get these kids while their young, teach em that they're not above the law even tho they seem to have their parents wrapped around their finger.

    2. Postal, sorry, as much as you may like me to do a cavity search on your keyboard a$$, its not in my job description, I just take em to the jail, and let them perform their fun there.



    Living Life as a K-9 Officer / EagleWolf Forum

    Discussion topics about Law Enforcement and anything related

    - Everyone welcome.


    gpostal
    Moderator
    Posts: 620
    (9/2/01 12:59:03 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    i guess a reach a round would be out of the question then {lololol}

    Robert Harden
    Member
    Posts: 43
    (9/2/01 1:00:45 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    LOL.....That depends. Are you hiding some of your dope there? If you are, I'll have the boys down at the jail give ya a reach around.

    Living Life as a K-9 Officer / EagleWolf Forum

    Discussion topics about Law Enforcement and anything related

    - Everyone welcome.


    gpostal
    Moderator
    Posts: 621
    (9/2/01 1:13:16 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    just for you harden {lolololol}


    www.ktis.net/~guenthes/watching[1].wav

    warning:adult content ,don't click on the link if you don't want to hear fowl language

    Robert Harden
    Member
    Posts: 47
    (9/2/01 1:55:25 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Great movie. I've never been the sensitive type, take advantage, punk em hard and drive on, thats what I say, don't give em the satisfaction.

    Living Life as a K-9 Officer / EagleWolf Forum

    Discussion topics about Law Enforcement and anything related

    - Everyone welcome.


    BlackGun
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 533
    (9/3/01 9:15:53 am)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    rules for survival: Sight alignment, Breath control, & Trigger Squeeze
    BlackGUN

    Edited by: BlackGun at: 9/3/01 10:18:38 am

    A Professional
    Member
    Posts: 6
    (10/23/01 5:03:45 am)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Well, I didnt have the time to read this whole thread, but here's my input on this probably, burnt out flame.

    Recently, I was out driving late at night, when an officer pulled up behind me, and followed me for about 5 miles. Now I can truthfully say my driving was flawless, and he would too. However I ended up getting pulled over anyways. The first thing I did was ask him, nicely but firmly, why was I stopped? He said a plate check said the owner (me) had no liscence. Now of course I had a liscence, and I'll bet a thousand dollars he knew I did too. Ok, sure, maybe a pleasure cruise outside town at 3 am is a little suspicious, which I know is why he pulled my over.

    Now I was driving without insurance (illegal here in Iowa) and that cost me a $400 ticket. Yea, ok. That was a nono, but pulling me over for the hell of it was a nono too. I know I wouldnt win that fight against it, so I didnt try. This is the whole problem with the system. Rights DO get violated. To say they don't is BS. I personally think the most officers have a "my way or the highway" attitude. This is wrong.

    PO's are "Public Servants" and need to realize this. We pay them, we gave them powers, and many are using it to their advantage in the wrong ways. The saddest part is so many people are letting PO's continue to work this way. ALL my friends know so very little about their own rights. They believe an officer has the right to do whatever they please. They are scared to say no, or stand up to them. Basically they are letting the rights get flushed down the drain. My father raised me better, im very glad he taught me about my rights. But not enough people are.

    And unfortunatly, this is only gonna get worst, expecially considering the 9-11 attacks. People are gonna accept loosing more right for better security. They are gonna get used to it, and move on.

    But I dont want my children living in that world, where people are no longer individuals, but property of a government who requires identification, papers, permits, passes, registration, ect, ect just to do the basic things we take for granted. Believe me, its heading down that road. I for one am not willing to pay that price for better saftey.

    (If you dont have an open mind, do not continue, as I get abit off topic.)

    The only true way we can make the world a better place, is NOT to keep adding restrictions to protect ourselves, but to change the way we all think. We need to prevent crime at the source. We've done a horrible job at raising our children, teaching them values, caring enough to guide them when they most need it.

    Somehow I think its a little too late to fix this problem, as bad people raise bad children... and every generation is getting worse. Could you imagine letting someone from the good ol days of the 1920's watch MTV? The kinda smut were are used to watching, the music we rot our minds with, the general attitude of the people on this planet gets worse everyday.

    I hope your all not looking foward to a nice bright Startrek future, cus it aint coming anytime soon. Because we still havent learned those truely guiding words, that if EVERYONE lived by, would save us all from the crime, racism, hate, ignorance, and everything wrong with our world. And that is "Love conquers all!" Yea, seems kinda mushy to ya dosent it? Well it shouldnt!!! And that my friends the the root of all our problems.

    -A world without hate, is a world of freedom-



    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1945
    (10/23/01 9:09:00 am)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I'm in late on this, so I will be short. I will try to address the ORIGINAL question.

    #1, I lived in Ohio for about 10 years, had guns in the car all the time, when I was competing, usually in plain sight, but loaded mags all around in the open shooting box, sped like heck, got pulled all the time, NEVER hassled about the .45 in the back seat.

    Of course, the shredded IPSC targets and the occasional Garand or riot gun visible in the hatchback prolly made them "freindly" when they approached the car, too.(Also, rural areas and smaller cities, NEVER near Cleveland or Cinci, but once in Columbus, and just the ticket.)

    #2 In Ohio's CCW law, there are 5 "affirmative defenses" listed all ending with "...would justify a REASONABLE man to go armed..."

    Most involve jobs in bad areas, handling large amounts or cash, etc., but the LAST one is ANY circumstances that would justify....

    A good lawyer can beat a CCW rap in Ohio IF everything else is in order, i.e., JUST CCW, no other stupidity. For instance, a guy I worked with beat one with no lawyer, just cited an old case in which a defendent in court said "I'll get you, man!" and it was a matter of PR, he just produced the transcript years later, case thrown out. "Reasonable."

    #3 My wife is the "Administrative Assistant" at a county prosecutor's office in Indiana, and one of her jobs is to scan EVERY search and sieze case for "reasonableness." We argue ALL the time, she says it's a crock to think S&S laws have been "liberalized" for LEOs, actually, more "specific."

    The LEO better have had PC for the initial STOP AND have established "seperate and distinct" PC to even ASK to search the vehicle or premises, or she advises no filing, and has NEVER been questioned by either the prosecutor or assistants.

    At least in Indiana...it's still sane, and "surprise, surprise," "typical" LEOs in Indiana are more respected by the General public than typical LEOs in any other state I have lived in with "stricter" enforcement.

    "Have you been drinking, sir" NO. (If you KNOW you are under the limit, never been asked when I've been "close.")

    "Is there a Gun in the car? " Never been asked when I had one in the front, legal or illegal, only when I had legal ones in the trunk, which was NONE of their business....so NO.

    I was in Buffalo last week. I had my .45 with me. Indiana Permit would PROBABLY count in Ohio, would in PA, mandatory 1 year in NY no questions.

    If I was stopped, and I do "push" speed limits, I would have said "NO." We DO need to push for the ability to carry legal in ANY state, if you are legal in your home state, just like a driver's license...it IS BS that I would have been a felon in NY had I met a cowboy cop. But like I said somewhere else, even in this state of "Heightened Awareness," the ONLY NYS Trooper I saw was in church Sunday morning....NONE on the road....must all be in NYC, or on the Thruway....

    But then, I lived in NY State for 21 years, and my first two handguns I owned were illegal then, so....

    I guess cops figure me for a "good guy."


    Crap, there I go again, long post, sorry!


    We must make war as we must; not as we would like. - Field Marshal Kitchener, 1915

    Edited by: polishshooter at: 10/23/01 10:19:27 am

    AGunguy
    Moderator
    Posts: 550
    (10/23/01 10:16:48 am)
    | Edit | Del Re: Options
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Good post, Polish...but that was short? Hee hee.

    GG
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.