Patriotism Thread

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by 1952Sniper, Mar 8, 2003.

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  1. 1952Sniper

    1952Sniper New Member

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    505799
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 77
    (2/13/03 9:21:07 pm)
    Reply Patriotism Thread
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    I thought this Forum was
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    dedicated to the preservation of the United States Constitution and all who gave all to see it through from the beginning to the present
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    I thought that
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    we aim for freedom!
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    I was shocked and disgusted by comments I saw in another thread. Comments that showed a complete disdain for the very principles upon which this Nation is founded.

    Comments like
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    Muslims need to die.
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    The very first item listed in the first amendment in the document known as the Bill or Rights is
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    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
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    .

    Or are there those among us who now believe that the First Amendment is about prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, so long as it is not Islam?

    The motivation of the terrorist leaders and their followers not religion. It is the thirst for power. A power that is so evil that it can make people want to murder, want to die.

    It is EVIL incarnate. Plain and simple.

    I disagree with almost everything President Bush says and does, but I cannot fault him in this area. He got this one dead on when he described these terrorist bastards as evil men.

    For any who wish to make this fight against evil into a fight over religion I tell you this: I will stand and defend the right of any person, be they Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, atheist or whatever, to believe as they wish, so long as they do not try harm others in the name of their faith or try and force their beliefs down the throat of those that disagree with them on matters of faith.

    I have sworn to defend the Constitution of the United States to the best of my ability. I take that oath damned seriously and in needed, will do so with the very last breath in my body.


    Smokin Guns
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 750
    (2/13/03 9:40:11 pm)
    Reply Ummmm...
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    Maybe jest Maybe...cuz that's their opinion!...and Ya'all have yer own...That bee's wat free speech is all about...as far as the "all muslims must die"...look beyond it...


    kdub01
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2063
    (2/13/03 9:41:23 pm)
    Reply Re: Patriotism Thread
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    I most wholeheartedly agree -

    You cannot condemn someone for religious beliefs, color of skin or place of origin.

    You CAN condemn someone who preaches hatred for others because of their religious beliefs, color of skin or place of origin.

    I've grown tired and weary of the world population hating me because I'm an American - especially because I'm a WASP. If they are jealous or envious because of my birth right it's their problem, not mine. I don't mind sharing with friends, but I WILL NOT be forced through coercion to share my fortunes with someone who has not, yet feels I should share just because I have.

    My natural instinct is to strike back when struck. If someone has a deadly weapon they intend to use on me, they'd better be quick and fatal, otherwise they will have no second chance.

    Now, does THAT make me unAmerican in my core beliefs and attitude? If so, so be it.
    "Keep Off The Ridgeline"


    armedandsafe
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 108
    (2/13/03 9:47:00 pm)
    Reply Re: Patriotism Thread
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    I have to agree with you. I'm almost ashamed to have started this thread, although it sure took off in a cockeyed direction. I think next time I plan a fishing trip, I'll just open the thread again. That can o'worms should catch sompin'.

    Armed and Safe - not just a theory


    Yabra Kadabra Doo
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    Posts: 196
    (2/13/03 11:44:15 pm)
    Reply Re: Patriotism Thread
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    I was shocked and disgusted by comments I saw in another thread. Comments that showed a complete disdain for the very principles upon which this Nation is founded.

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    One of those principles is free speech and it's for everyone, including me when i'm in a bad mood after reading news about muslims cheering the deaths of our astronauts.

    Explain to me why it's almost always muslims who either a) blow up children, b) cheer when other people are brutally murdered for no apparent reason, or c) do nothing to stop their own kind from perpetuating the violence.

    I'm not in a turn-the-other-cheek mood this week. So sue me.

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    Or are there those among us who now believe that the First Amendment is about prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, so long as it is not Islam?
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    Sorry, but freedom of religion does not mean allowing all religions to do what they like. Advocates of Santeria are not allowed to sacrifice chickens, so why should muslims be allowed to sacrifice humans?

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    The motivation of the terrorist leaders and their followers not religion. It is the thirst for power. A power that is so evil that it can make people want to murder, want to die.
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    Did you even read what i posted from the Qu'ran and Hadiths? I doubt it, because it would have burst your bubble. The fact is that Islam DOES call for the annihilation of anyone who doesn't follow it. No other religion does this. So my comment that "muslims need to die" means that i feel that followers of a religion calling for extermination of others should be exterminated themselves before they can carry out their evil plans. The Nazis were a threat to mankind, so we eradicated them. Other threats have also been put down throughout history. The reason why people want Islam to be "immune" to eradication is only because it's a "religion". Why grant special status to killers just because they're being religious? Murderers need to be put down no matter what their reasons.

    Edited by: Yabra Kadabra Doo at: 2/13/03 11:55:26 pm


    Go Get Beer
    V.I.P. Member
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    (2/14/03 6:04:13 am)
    Reply Re: Patriotism Thread
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    One of those principles is free speech and it's for everyone, including me when i'm in a bad mood after reading news about muslims cheering the deaths of our astronauts.
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    The right for you to call for the death of muslims does not equal their right to cheer when Americans die?

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    Sorry, but freedom of religion does not mean allowing all religions to do what they like. Advocates of Santeria are not allowed to sacrifice chickens, so why should muslims be allowed to sacrifice humans?
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    Maybe I missed something, but I don't quite remember an Alim or a Mullah being a tool of a terrorist attack. I do remember however Muslim religious figures trying to dismantle terrorist situations.

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    Did you even read what i posted from the Qu'ran and Hadiths?
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    I read it and if I'm pressed (e.g. nobody else will do it) I'll look for their equivalent in the Bible and scriptures. It's your and the terrorists' interpretation of those passages that brings forth violence, not the texts themselves. Isn't it ironic how your mode of thinking about Quran is the same as the people's you hate most?

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    (...)followers of a religion calling for extermination of others should be exterminated themselves before they can carry out their evil plans.
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    I agree wholeheartedly. Those calling for murder of others must be contained somehow, by killing them if no other option is viable.

    Yes, I know that's not what you meant, but that's the only interpretation I can allow. A religion does not call. It's priests do and even they don't call in one voice.

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    The Nazis were a threat to mankind, so we eradicated them.
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    Correction. You perceived Nazis as a threat to your country, who declared war on you. You defeated them, tried the leaders (it was a victors' trial, but a trial nonetheless) and sentenced them to long terms in prison and sometimes to death. You didn't actually go about European countryside, rounding up every member and/or supporter of the NSDAP and summarily executing them without trial or even investigating their case, which you seem to advocate here.

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    The reason why people want Islam to be "immune" to eradication is only because it's a "religion". Why grant special status to killers just because they're being religious? Murderers need to be put down no matter what their reasons.
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    No, I don't want killers to be treated differently, no matter their religious, maritial, racial, sexual or any other status. I'm just saying that not all terrorists are Muslims and not all Muslims are terrorists. The same goes for black-slave, women-stupid, Americans-obnoxious, Mexican-lazy, Polish-drunk and any other broad general association.

    Other than that I can't agree more. If I understood anything wrong, just say so and I'll respond. Don't expect me to change my point of view, though, unless you present proof that I'm wrong.


    1952Sniper
    V.I.P. Member
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    (2/14/03 7:52:41 am)
    Reply | Edit Re: Patriotism Thread
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    Everybody here is getting quote-happy. What the hell, I'll jump in too.
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    For any who wish to make this fight against evil into a fight over religion I tell you this: I will stand and defend the right of any person, be they Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, atheist or whatever, to believe as they wish, so long as they do not try harm others in the name of their faith or try and force their beliefs down the throat of those that disagree with them on matters of faith.
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    Uh, isn't that what started this whole mess on 9/11? We would probably not be having this conversation if it weren't for your beloved Muslims who harmed others in the name of their faith.

    Don't get me wrong. I do not hate all Muslims. I respect anyone who practices their religion in a peaceful manner. But to say that Islam is a peaceful religion is just plain stupid. Whoever told Bush this was a liar. The teachings are plain. And don't tell me it's all about interpretation! There is text in the Qur'an that cannot be interpreted any other way than violent. And it is much more prevalent in the Qur'an than in the Bible.

    And to prove my point, I ask you to show me one single peaceful Muslim country. Even the Muslims themselves, for the most part, agree that having an Islamic government is a bad idea. When you let Islamic holy men take power, you end up with the Taliban. That was supposed to be a "true Islamic state". If that's what true Islam was all about, then I would agree with the notion of wiping it from the face of the earth.

    I'm so sick and tired of people being "politically correct". It's one thing to try to treat people equally and protect their right to practice their religion. It's another thing to totally roll over and let them trample you because you're scared you might offend them. Sheesh.........
    Macht kaputt, was euch kaputt macht!


    Yabra Kadabra Doo
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 198
    (2/14/03 9:17:20 am)
    Reply Re: Patriotism Thread
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    It's your and the terrorists' interpretation of those passages that brings forth violence, not the texts themselves.
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    Interpretation? How else would you interpret this:

    "Fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem ..."

    If a certain race/nation of people rolled out a statement like this, then they'd be at war pretty quick. But because it's a "religion" you want to look the other way.

    Just out of curiosity, how many years have you actually lived in muslim countries, or is your view of them built around what you've heard from your friends and the media? Western muslims are a far cry from their middle eastern and asian counterparts. Western people who convert to Islam usually don't read Arabic or understand half of what is actually in the Qur'an and Hadiths. Furthermore, since western civilization was built around Judeo-Christian ethics, these new converts go into Islam with pre-existing ideas of morality. In other words, they reject the violence of Islam not because it is absent from the teachings, but because they already have a philosophical opposition to violence and think they can mold Islam around their pre-existing beliefs.


    1952Sniper
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 1086
    (2/14/03 11:07:59 am)
    Reply | Edit Re: Patriotism Thread
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    In other words, they reject the violence of Islam not because it is absent from the teachings, but because they already have a philosophical opposition to violence and think they can mold Islam around their pre-existing beliefs.
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    Except for the likes of Louis Farrakhan, who practices "true" Islam. And we all know the kind of peace he brings to the table.
    Macht kaputt, was euch kaputt macht!


    the real fredneck
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 1181
    (2/14/03 12:47:43 pm)
    Reply
    Re: Patriotism Thread
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    Jerry Falwell, Calypso Louie, Rev. Al, Osama, Kohemeni, et al are charlatans and frauds that would rather earn their bread from the flap of their jaw than the sweat of their brow (my $.02 anyway)


    505799
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 79
    (2/14/03 4:57:51 pm)
    Reply Peaceful Islamic country
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    Name a peaceful Islamic nation?

    How about Turkey? They are our allies in going after Iraq.

    How about Pakistan? They are our allies in the southern Asia (Afghanistan) campaign.
    How about Indonesia? Last time I checked they weren't at war with any other countries, and are our allies.

    How about Saudi Arabia? Last time I checked, they were not at war with anyone, and are our allies.

    How about Kuwait? They are providing the staging point for the upcoming invasion of Iraq. They too are said to be allies.

    How about Egypt? They stood with us in ODS. They have no love of people who practice terror, be they Muslim or Jew.

    How about Morrocco? They have been at peace for as long as I can remember.

    Sure there are extremists in these countries doing all sorts of heinious acts. The IRA and RUC come to mind. The Israelis. The Russians and the Chechins.
    There have even been extremists in the US doing all sorts of heinious acts. Folks like Tim McVey, the Okalhoma City murderer and his pal Terry Nicols, the guy too stupid to say no.

    I am not a religious scholar. Never have been, never wanted to be. But I know one thing for sure.

    When someone say that doing (INSERT HEINIOUS ACT OF YOUR CHOICE) is in the will of God, it never is. It is that person falling prey to the temptation of evil.

    Terrorism is evil. It is not religion.


    1952Sniper
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 1090
    (2/14/03 5:31:00 pm)
    Reply | Edit Re: Peaceful Islamic country
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    505799, just because a nation is assisting us in the "war on terror" does not mean they are a peaceful nation, or that they are our friends. Most of them hate us with a passion, but acquiesce to our needs because we carry a big stick.

    Most of the countries you mentioned are breeding grounds for terrorists, like Saudi Arabia. They smile nicely to our faces while funneling money and manpower to terrorist organizations. Remember the recent scandal concerning the Prince's daughter? They found that money had been transferred to terrorist organizations through her. The Saudi government has not yet satisfactorily answered what that was all about.

    Pakistan? Gimme a break. About every 3 or 4 months, they get into it with India. Aside from North Korea, Pakistan is probably the most likely to launch a nuclear weapon.

    Turkey is actively involved in human rights violations against the Kurds (I just learned that today, thanks to Go Get Beer). Interestingly enough, that's the same group that another Muslim country has had problems with; namely, Iraq.

    Even the Muslims can't get along with each other. Remember the war between Iran and Iraq? The Sunni Muslims and the Shiite Muslims have been warring for generations.

    I know, I know.... the first thing you'll say is "what about the Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland?" Different story. They are not killing each other over who has the better religion. That is a quarrel about who rightfully belongs in Ireland, the Irish or the English. It just so happens that they are of different faiths.

    I do agree with you that anyone who says God wants him to murder people is fooling himself on what God really wants. The problem is, the Islamic faith teaches this as a basic tenet of their beliefs. They teach that anyone who dies while killing infidels will receive 72 virgins and all that BS. IMHO it is the religious teachings that are the root of the problem. Islam is fundamentally flawed. It teaches subservience as a way of life. Not just subservience to Allah, but subservience of women to men, etc.

    In short, Islam is in contradiction to the basic principle of America: freedom. American women are allowed to do things and say things that Islamic women will never be allowed to do or say. This is a fundamental problem. It goes against human nature. Humans will always fight to be free. So as long as Islam is practiced, there will always be suffering.
    Macht kaputt, was euch kaputt macht!


    Yabra Kadabra Doo
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 200
    (2/14/03 8:52:08 pm)
    Reply Re: Peaceful Islamic country
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    How about Indonesia? Last time I checked they weren't at war with any other countries, and are our allies.

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    Having spent some years in Indonesia, i can tell that you are quite ignorant about this country. Indonesia has had more recent religious conflict (i.e. muslims killing christians) than any other country in the world, barring Sudan and Nigeria. Indonesia, particularly Aceh, Madura, Ambon, and parts of East Java, is a breeding ground for terrorists. There are bomb threats on a daily basis in Jakarta, Bandung, Medan, and other major cities. Chinese women have been raped for years simply because they refuse to convert to Islam. The govt REQUIRES that all citizens put down their religious affiliation on their national ID cards, and harrasses anyone who doesn't put Islam. Non-muslims are barred from buying certain properties, from joining certain military groups, from many govt jobs, and a host of other discriminatory acts.

    As for the rest of your list, i'm still laughing that you'd include Saudi Arabia (still have slaves, women are treated like cattle, etc.), Pakistan (riots every other day), Egypt (raping non-muslim women on a regular basis to "water down" the blood lines), Kuwait (women can't even drive, much less have any other kinds of freedom), and Turkey (which is not even a muslim country as the military wisely pulls off a coup everytime a muslim gets elected).

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    My idea of an agreeable person is a person who agrees with me


    kaylan1
    Member
    Posts: 5
    (2/14/03 9:33:16 pm)
    Reply Re: Peaceful Islamic country
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    Yabra, from the sound of things we probably crossed paths on our adventures in the area. You truly speak the truth. Not alot of Americans are privy to the goings on in that part of the world. They rely on the filtered info from the media.

    question:
    Wasn't osoma bin, and the taliban smiling at us, calling us allies while we funded them with weapons and training to fight the soviets for 10 yrs. same deal with iraq against iran?
    It's not how we interpret the books, but that we understand how they interpret the books and does their government support that view, publicly or secretly doesn't matter.


    Yabra Kadabra Doo
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 202
    (2/14/03 10:38:37 pm)
    Reply Re: Peaceful Islamic country
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    Kaylan, nice to meet you.

    Did you ever get to the American Club in Jkt? They've closed it down now because of all the terror threats to Americans which the Indonesia govt refused to either acknowledge or handle. But oh wait! 505799 would have us believe that Indonesia is our ally!

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    My idea of an agreeable person is a person who agrees with me


    kaylan1
    Member
    Posts: 7
    (2/15/03 3:36:48 am)
    Reply Trustworthy allies
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    No, didn't get to socialize much. Was there off and on for short stints. Yeah, they're our allies alright. We can trust them like a mouse can trust a python. Don't turn your back.


    1952Sniper
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 1093
    (2/15/03 10:03:56 am)
    Reply | Edit Re: Peaceful Islamic country
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    Turkey (which is not even a muslim country as the military wisely pulls off a coup everytime a muslim gets elected).
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    Turkey is actually a 100% (or damn close to it) Muslim country. The "father of Turkey", Kemal Ataturk, who has a questionable history, is responsible for Turkey's modern day republic. Turkey, during WWI, was very much like Germany. They had dreams of an Ottoman Empire that would dominate Asia and Europe. However, Kemal Ataturk changed that. Below is an excerpt from www.ataturk.com :

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    The New Turkey's ideology was, and remains, "Kemalism", later known as "Atatürkism". Its basic principles stress the republican form of government representing the power of electorate, secular administration, nationalism, mixed economy with state participation in many of the vital sectors, and modernization. Atatürkism introduced to Turkey the process of parliamentary and participatory democracy.

    The first Moslem nation to become a Republic, Turkey has served since the early 1920s as a model for Moslem and non-Moslem nations in the emerging world.
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    Now, I'm not naive enough to believe that Ataturk was some kind of angel. There have been charges of human rights violations, even genocide committed by the Turks against Greeks and other peoples. However, the Turkish government has made and is making a strong attempt to model itself after western governments (i.e. a secular republic). This is in direct conflict with Muslim ideology, which would explain the problems they have even to this day. It goes to show that Muslims cannot live in peace with non-Muslims, even when they try to hold themselves to a higher standard. I do not fault the people themselves, but the religion. The basic human desire is to live in peace, but the religion of Islam (which instills fear in people of the wrath of Allah for not doing his bidding) requires them to wage war against Infidels.

    It all goes back to subservience. The religion teaches them to be subservient to Allah. And Allah tells them to kill Infidels, or they will spend eternity suffering. So, if you were a Muslim what would you do? IMHO that religion treats everyone like children. It's all about rewards and punishments, with no allowance for individual thought.
    Macht kaputt, was euch kaputt macht!


    Yabra Kadabra Doo
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 206
    (2/15/03 2:06:25 pm)
    Reply Re: Trustworthy allies
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    Turkey is actually a 100% (or damn close to it) Muslim country.
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    The population is mostly nominal muslims, and the govt is secular. I was trying to say that they are not run by muslim law, as their neighbours are.

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    My idea of an agreeable person is a person who agrees with me


    DE44TCN
    Member
    Posts: 5
    (2/17/03 5:51:03 pm)
    Reply Re: Patriotism Thread
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    This is excellent reading, politics and Government were somewhat second mind to me until 9/11, or shortly after. It's painfully clear that the tabloid and TV news are highly "filtered", if not completely "slanted".

    I enjoy the first hand commentary from those who have been there and have seen what it's like to be a US citizen on very foreign soil. I would like to travel to middle-east or western-Asia someday, not soon, to see what it's really like.

    As far as religious handbooks go, I have read none, except for the hobbit, when I was young.
     
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