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Discussion in 'Self Defense Tactics & Weapons' started by Boozecoon, Mar 15, 2017.
Critical Defense or Gold dots in my G42
I use HST in my 9mm and .45 ACP. 147gr for 9mm and 230gr for 45.
This backs up my feelings on the subject. The most important is having your gun, whatever it is, on you and shot placement is key for most standard calibers. 22lr-45acp. Real world conditions theres not a whole lot of diff between all the major calibers. More diff in bullet type and design than a few .001's of and inch will make in the human body. Just by the laws of physics, lower velocity rounds generally yield less expansion, higher velocity its easier to achieve more. Theres no right or wrong answer imo, you have your "big gun" fans and your "less is more" folk and really either will work just fine with a well designed bullet and a well placed shot.
What happens when a high stress situation takes away accuracy? For several years the LEO's with their 357 mag's (Texas & Indiana HP comes to mind) put on a clinic on how to drop BG's with single torso shots. Ive read IHP reported 119 officer involved shootings while the 357 was their standard issue and 112 required only 1 shot. In most cases ive seen it was either flat nosed lead or their older jhp's that didnt expand very much. The mix of their high velocity and controlled expansion caused enormous shock to the CNS. Its been dubbed the "lightning bolt effect" not too far from high powered rifle shots. Plenty penetration for deep wounds with very little over penetration and enough expansion for deadly permanent tracks.
Its not big guns that do the trick, although big guns pack a waloop, its big enough and fast enough paired with the right bullet type that seems to me to be the most effective. I believe other calibers can and do achieve this same effect but most times the guns are too big or bulky to carry concealed everyday by most people. Like the 44mag, 41mag, and up to the 460s&w im sure. The ones of these that have guns small enough for me to carry everyday are few and far between. Maybe the 357 itself, 357sig, 10mm, 9x25 dillon and wether or not the lightning bolt effect is real, they all have the right velocity vs weight to take BG's out of the fight quicker than any other caliber that ive heard of. I carry a 9mm more than any other caliber so im probably not the best equipped but more importantly than any of what i just wrote, i will have it on me when i need it.
One thing is for sure. You, or I, won't be making a head shot, a heart shot, or an eye shot when someone is shooting at you. Unless we get real lucky! You, or I, will be doing good to make center mass hits at all. I personally need all the help I can get form the biggest bullet I can fire down range, and make combat hits with.
Critical Duty in my XD-40.
no such thing....every person is different....mentally and physically...just keep shooting until they know they're stopped..
I agree Zant, and each shot placement is different. Where you hit them is IMO vastly more important than the brand of hollow point. I'd rather score a hit with a .38 Special LSWC than miss with a .357 Gold Dot. Miss 'em and they keep coming. Shoot what you can hit them with.
On duty - whatever the dept. issues and says I have to use. Currently, that is Speer 180gr. GD in .40 S&W for our Sig P229R DAKs or P239 DAKs. For alternate duty use (think detectives and command staff), we can also use Speer 9mm 124gr. GD in standard pressure in a S&W 3953 or 5946. For BUG, it's Speer 125gr. +P for the S&W J-Frames on our list (if it doesn't have +P on the barrel, we can't carry it) or the same 9mm load in the two Ruger LCP pistols they authorize.
Off duty - depends on my testing in a given caliber. For example, if I owned a Walther PPK in .380 ACP, I would start my research by looking at something like the ballistics results from some place like Lucky Gunner for loads that might do well as a defensive load in my pistol and make a list of them. Since I'm just a working stiff and haven't won the lottery yet, I'd whittle down the list to just three or four loads and rank them from most want to carry to least. Then, I'll buy a box of load X and start to test it for reliability and accuracy in my pistol. If load X proves to be up to my standard of reliability AND accuracy (after I've ruled out any other possible reasons function and accuracy aren't up to snuff, such as mags, human error, etc.), I'll buy another box and keep testing until I'm satisfied they'll do the job. If load X doesn't make the cut, then I move to load Y and start again. This has been my protocol for a while now.
Are you LEO?.
Where are you located?.
I thought all departments went to Glocks.
Yes, I'm an LEO. 21+ years now with the Memphis PD. Quite a few depts. in the area issue Glocks. When my dept. was testing to move from the S&W 4043 .40 cals they were issuing, we tested six different pistols, a 4046, Walther P990, Glock G22, Sig 2340, Sig P229 and another .40 cal I can't remember right now. Only the Walther, Glock and P229 made it to the second round of testing, which was a torture test of 10,000 rounds fired as quick as the shooter could send them down range. The P229 made it through with only one stoppage, which was shooter induced. The Glock and Walther both had more stoppages, but not by much. The Glock also had some pin-walk during the test, which I'm sure was caused by the high heat causing the frame to expand enough for the pin to do so. I think a more accurate test would have been to have the shooter fire one thousand rounds as fast as possible, then let the pistols cool off for a hour, doing that ten times. I would have been happy with any of the three semi-finalist, but the Walther without the little hump inside the trigger guard. That little sucker always rubbed my finger when shooting my personal P99.
I really don't have a favorite caliber for SD. For duty, my employer dictates the gun/ammo selection. Off-duty, though, is a different matter. What gun/caliber is carried is based mostly on my evaluation of season, activities, mode of dress and assessment of the level of risks for that day. I'll give a couple of examples to illustrate my thinking. In the first one, it's July here in the South, with milk running low and the store is just a couple of miles from my house in a small town. For a trip like that, where I'm likely wearing shorts and a t-shirt, just slipping on the flip-flops, I'll likely strap on a S&W 3953 in an OWB holster, loaded with 124gr. GD. I also might slip a S&W 442 with 125gr. +P GD, or Walther PPK with Hornady XTP, into a pocket. Going into a very bad part of the medium-large city that is nearby, during the winter, I might strap on a full-size 1911 in .45acp, with HST ammo, or perhaps a Para P16.40, also with HST ammo. Both of those would be in an OWB holster.
I prefer the Speer Gold Dots for a hollow point bullet.
Hornady XTP's are another one of my favorites.
Recently I have gone away from hollow points in favor of the Lehigh extreme defense loads.
They cause wicked damage and there is no chance of the hollow point getting plugged.
Cor-Bon-powered 200gr. flying ashtrays in .45acp.
Another Federal HST fan here. Got a LGS who stocks the 124g +P LEO flavor.
The round did well in micro, compact and service pistol ballistic comparison tests.
Did some highly unscientific tests with a few friends and it performed as desired from all three barrel lengths.
Thankfully, though, there are a lot of good choices out there these days.