pre '64 winchester model '94 chamber misloading question

Discussion in 'Technical Questions & Information' started by Mous, Jan 7, 2018.

  1. Mous

    Mous New Member

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    Hi:
    I'm rebuilding a salvaged '94 that only chambers a round sporadically. The part (carrier) that lifts the round into place when the hand lever (finger lever) is pulled down usually doesn't lift the bullet high enough to enter the chamber. When it does, the back of the bullet is low so the breech bolt hits the side of the bullet instead of the back. Then it jams and would dent the casing if pushed.

    Before I monkey with it, I'm asking if this is a known problem and what's the solution? I'm guessing something is worn or missing and will be hard to spot if it's not there. :)

    thanks, Mous
     
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  2. Old Guns

    Old Guns Well-Known Member

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    It sounds like the lever may not be opening all the way which also means the bolt is not traveling all the way back. Near the very end of the opening cycle the bolt engages the carrier and lifts the next round into position to be picked up by the bolt and pushed forwards and up through the 2 guide rails on each side of the receiver. In the picture below it shown fully opened. This is a mechanical operation that does not rely on springs or inertia. If it is failing to lift the shell there is something very worn or more likely something keeping it from opening all the way. There is a carrier spring but it is there to insure the carrier goes back down all the way in order to pick up the next shell. Since it sounds like you are working on a gun that either old or poorly cared for you will need to look closely at everything as there are lost of places a dirt or a small piece of metal could lodge to jam things up.
    Model 94 Open.jpg
     

  3. One Shot

    One Shot Well-Known Member Supporting Member

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    When my older brothers used my Dads pre 64 they had the same problem. When it came my turn it happened a few times. I did a partial disassembly and thorough cleaning and it hasn't been a problem for the last 30 years. I would try a good cleaning first.
     
  4. Kvasir

    Kvasir Well-Known Member

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    I recently repaired a friends pre-64 that had the same problem you describe. My first thought was a thorough disassembly and cleaning.
    This gun was very well cared for, and rarely fired. Mostly because the feed issues made it a pain to shoot.
    Once I had it apart I noticed the machining of the carrier was horrifically poor. Every edge was sharp, and rough.
    A very light cleaning of burs with jewelers files, and a light buffing (by hand) straightened it right out. Now it's as smooth as glass.
    The idea is not to alter the shape or dimensions of the carrier. Just to eliminate any friction caused by those rough edges scraping the frame. This should have been done when the gun was made, but apparently was overlooked. That is probably why the gun was so well preserved.
     
  5. Mous

    Mous New Member

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    the lever does open like @Old Guns diagram. Are carriers from pre and post '64 guns interchangeable? It might have parts from a post '64 that doesn't fit, the carrier is blue/black and the other parts are more gray. I buffed the edges but it still hangs up.

    Gaah! I found it. it's hitting the Spring Cover / Loading Gate. ok whew, seems like a reasonable place to look before invoking the academy.

    thank you guys.

    Mous :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2018
  6. Kvasir

    Kvasir Well-Known Member

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    Glad to hear you found the issue. Thanks for letting us know.
     
  7. Kweeksdraw

    Kweeksdraw Well-Known Member

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    Mous, Don't do too much to it. the carrier is supposed to ride along the loading gate. A dimple on the gate makes the carrier want to stay up or down. Don't know the answer about old vs. new parts, but it may require some polishing/ fitting, and lube. Maybe some more replies will come along with more info. My post 64 used to be quite difficult to raise the carrier all the way. I cleaned it, lubed it, shot it, over and over, and after a couple hundred rounds it got smooth and friendly. I notice in some movies they take the rifle down from their shoulder and hold it vertically while they yank the lever, mine was like that. In old movies they actually shot blanks, so the gun had to function.
     
  8. Kweeksdraw

    Kweeksdraw Well-Known Member

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    I have been trying to remember what all I did to my 94. Have you tried it without ammo? Will the carrier easily lift all the way up then? Mine would. However with rounds in the mag tube it would work intermittently like you describe. The front of the bullets were hanging on the way up to the chamber. When the round goes onto the carrier, if it then stays foreward it would hang on the path from the mag tube, up along the receiver to the chamber. If I held the gun muzzle up it would feed okay, as it did most of the time. I took dowel wrapped in emory paper and smoothed the path from the rear of the chamber down to the tube. There is a tab at the front of the lower plate that stops the next round from exiting the tube. That tab was holding the next round a bit too far foreward. The base of that round is what just pushed the round being loaded onto the carrier. I'm pretty sure a competent smith would massage that tab to make things right. Not saying I'm incompetent, but I chose not to do that. That's about all I can remember.
    Keep us posted.
     
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  9. Mous

    Mous New Member

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    thanks kweeksdraw, there's still some loading hangups. The main/big one was the carrier but even after the round is started in the chamber it still gets stuck half way in. looks like it drags on the bullet guide thingies along either side. the bullet rim doesn't want to pass through their notches. I guess that's the next rounding job. too cold to do it tonight, I'll post later in the week.

    Mous :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2018
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  10. Kweeksdraw

    Kweeksdraw Well-Known Member

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    Keep checking the forum here for replies. There should be some here that know the 94 inside and out.
     
  11. Mous

    Mous New Member

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    Hi folks, here's the latest update:
    It appears that the rim of the bullet is hitting the bullet guide on both sides. There's a notch in the guides with a sharp edge on the bottom that I assume the bullet should clear but doesn't. The back of the casing is too low. Looking at this diagram (http://www.gun-parts.com/winchesterrifle/1894.jpg) there's a carrier spring that's said to pull the carrier back down. Does it also push the back of the shell up to clear the bullet guide notches? What's supposed to lift it up? I tried pointing the barrel up when working the lever but it only seems to load when the barrel is downward and the gun is shaken. Then the bullet just rattles into place in the chamber.

    any suggestions?

    :)
     
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  12. Old Guns

    Old Guns Well-Known Member

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    Reread my first post. The bolt has a lug on the bottom that cams the carrier up. The spring does not lift the carrier. It loads the way you speak of because you letting gravity allow the shell to fall in place. If it is not lifting the shell one of the following applies.

    The bolt is not coming all the way back.
    The lug on the bolt has been removed, ground off.
    The carrier is broken and the part the the bolt engages is missing.
    You may have parts from a pre 64 and a post 64 mixed up but I doubt this is the case.
    It is possible that someone has disabled this gun.
    There are no other possibilities. It is a mechanical function and will work if the parts are OK.

    You need to disassemble the gun and see what is going on or take it to someone who knows how to work on these guns. They are not the easiest guns to take apart. I am sure you can find a YouTube video on one. Some pictures of your gun would be a help.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
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  13. Mous

    Mous New Member

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    Hi folks:
    It appears that the rim of th bullet is hitting the bullet guide on both sides. There's a notch in the guides with a sharp edge on the bottom that I assume the bullet should clear but it doesn't. the back of the casing is too low. Looking at this diagram ()
    Hi Old Guns:

    I don't think the bolt and carrier are the problem. The carrier pivots relative to the receiver frame so the front of the carrier moves up but the back is fixed on the carrier pins, it doesn't lift. The front of the bullet lines up w/ the chamber now but the back of the bullet is too low when the bolt comes forward, so the bullet rim hits the edge of the bullet guide notch.

    The bullet has clearance to pass between the bullet guides, but just barely. Are measurements available for the proper distance between the guides (in case someone clamped the receiver in a vise (or something?), causing the bullet to drag on either side)?
     
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  14. Old Guns

    Old Guns Well-Known Member

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    A few details would help out so much. Are we talking about a 30-30? The rails are fixed and easy to remove so I doubt they are the problem. They have an angled section for the rim to pass through. The carrier could be worn and not coming all the way up. How old is the gun. Serial number. PICTURES would be a big help. You need to take it apart to see the condition of the parts mentioned. We need to see the parts. The bolt could be damaged at the front. We need some help from you to figure this out.
     
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  15. Mous

    Mous New Member

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    The gun is a 30-30 made in 1942. I've had it apart several times, it shows some wear and apparent abuse but not enough to throw it away. The carrier DOES come all the way up (see pic 2). The bullet jams on the edge of the angled slot in the guide rails when the bolt moves forward (see pic 1 arrows) because the back of the casing doesn't lift up when the bolt pushes it. It may be dragging against the sides though the rim has plenty of room.
    [​IMG]

    this pic below shows the carrier is up and the bullet is started in the chamber, the bolt is pulled completely back in this pic so the carrier will be shown in it's up position and to prove I'm not trying to waste your time. Sorry the pics are dark. I can get better ones in daylight.
    [​IMG]

    This is the open breech, showing the condition of the front of the bolt. there's more detail in the photos before they're uploaded, don't know how to get around that.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2018
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