preventing arms and freedom losses a invite to discuss

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by jack404, Feb 18, 2010.

  1. jack404

    jack404 Former Guest

    Jan 11, 2010


    This , I hope , will be a open discussion on a future that we as free people design instead of the one that a few wish to design for us.
    I have read

    when they come to take my guns I’ll refuse , and
    when they come I’ll fight , or
    when they come I’ll run and hide,

    So its obvious everyone thinks they come , but its also obvious from these discussions that the majority are happy to sit and wait for this to just happen before they act.
    Then will act only to give more reason to take guns away or to look after only themselves.

    I find this ludicrous thinking , lazy beyond belief , and bloody disappointing.

    Yes we have sports on TV and comfy chairs and cold beer and are happy with what we have , so lets all just ignore the games being played by those who wish to control us with our tax dollars and allow the world to spiral out of control and then and only then will we do something, like give in, or stand and fight ( alone as that how they’ll come , at 3 am with atask force to one house and take the occupants away, a few weeks later they come for a neighbour and a few weeks later another one , while the same thing is happening all over the nation so they can pick the resistors and hit them with enough force to destroy them and in doing so put fear into the rest to co-opt them into their game) lets all just sit back and take what’s coming as there’s a game on TV and we have some beers in the fridge right ?

    WRONG. Or I think it is.

    Sun Soo taught many things
    Mainly a strategy of warfare, but he also taught that the fight we win is the one we don’t fight.
    He also taught that all battles are won before they start
    And that the victor is generally the one that sets the time and place

    This things are as true today as they where back when he wrote them

    I’d like to discuss this with you without the one line rhetoric of the past
    Without the defiant slogans
    Without the machismo BS
    I wish to discuss a strategy that will ensure a future for freedom not only for second amendment rights but for all rights that we as God gifted people should enjoy
    And the responsibilities that come with those gifted rights

    God came to many people in the past and told them to commit to war

    Some wars where bloody battles
    Some of attrition
    Some of the mind
    Some of perseverance
    And some where just wars of simple bloody mindedness to a ideal

    I wish to discuss the last 4

    I as a Australian have seen how the UN co-opted nations take away rights and freedoms with the promises of more freedoms that tie us up and bind us in a way that we forfill the old adage
    Eat, Consume, Pay Taxes and Die and leave nothing left of substance for the individual
    Yes we may spend our money at fair grounds and pay taxes doing so , its good for the economies and those who directly control the Un and wish for a Global government as they get a chunk of everything we spend almost

    Yes we can Buy a big screen TV and have a choice of 500+ channels of spam that they approve of

    Yes we can buy a car and travel where we wish to on the fuel they control

    Yes we can vote for who we choose even though they are co-opting our voting system as they have already done in Australia where who you vote for may not be the one who gets your vote

    But for how long can we do this once they have global dominance?

    George Orwells book 1984 shows a almost global government lying and controlling people and using a generally unseen enemy as the reason for this control

    A Global government will need such a enemy to allow it to gain this control
    But the idea of any global government would and should be the enemy of us all

    Power corrupts
    Absolute power corrupts ABSOLUTELY

    But Big Brother in Orwell’s book had the ministry of Truth ( it created the lies)
    The ministry of Love ( punishment and torture)
    The ministry of Peace ( who ran the war, mainly against its own citizens)

    And so on

    Now we have the UN and it has a directorate of peace , which is responsible for disarmament, not of militaries but of civilians

    For now its mainly waging a information war , aimed at our children in schools but it also has a intelligence division collecting information and statistics

    Part of this information is signed into the agreement that the US president approved a few weeks ago

    This information will be the tally of information from all dealers of guns and arms in the American continent

    Who, what what they paid, where it was delivered to, how they paid, and who delivered it and when it was delivered and who if possible signed for it

    It will include the books and contents of C&R licence’s in fact anyone who buys a weapon which has any paperwork attached to that sale , the UN will have it very soon , and there is no limit of pre-disclosure ( meaning they can go back in record as far as they deem necessary)

    So they’ll know almost globally who has what guns, or the legal ones that is.

    They don’t want all the guns, they’ll need the criminals to own some so they can then step up the limitations on freedoms to control the populations

    So they’ll allow the middle eastern folks to own them knowing their gangs will commit crimes with them in our countries and their own , but as long as the leaders are safe in their gated and armed guarded sanctuaries they wont care

    They’ll also need a bad boy, a enemy to wage a war against as a further control meathod as orwell had , maybe it will be china or a resurgent Russia, maybe a middle eastern nation it does not matter whom, just as long as they have one

    All this is very much on the planning boards NOW

    So how do we as a free people avoid this ?

    Is a movement like the Tea Party in the US enough?

    Is a fully planned campaign the answer, if so who will control it and how do we prevent it from being co-opted like so many other Independence groups who are now just dead in the water or mouth pieces for “special interest” groups”

    And is this the right place to discuss this

    I invite your thought out thoughts and responses

    Please think, think hard and let us all know them,

    I am not asking for , From my cold dead hands
    Nor when they come I’ll give them the bullets first

    I am looking for ways to prevent them coming at all

    And if we cannot discuss this in the manner erequested I’ll simply leave this discussion and continue elsewhere where people will discuss this as this is not the only forum this is placed on, sorry


  2. K1D_5150

    K1D_5150 New Member

    Jan 28, 2010
    Hutchinson, KS
    That is a brain tickler. Our fathers, fathers fathers and grandfathers, and so on have left us in quite the pickle. As far as the American continent, we still have un-coopted officials in some states, and it remains to be seen how many, but I know Kansas is one, so the voting booth here is still an option, but I don't know if this will be enough. Electing power back to the states is the best way to avoid this, but if things were to stir here I fear it would be the worst Civil War seen in recent history, and I hope this doesn't happen. I think the best thing for now here is to see how the Congressional elections this year pan out, and go from there. Its hard to know what to do collectively without becoming part of the problem or fueling their 'see they really are crazies' fire. Most people are just too ignorant, selfish, or lazy to think about it. I think about it all the time, but I fail to have the knowledge and foresight to know what else to do. Sorry, just being honest.

  3. Lee C.

    Lee C. New Member

    Feb 3, 2010
    Antigo Wi.
    Jack, I've been watching this country go down the toilet for some years now. And trying to get people to stand to gether to get there voice heard by the politicians but it seems like most people don't want to even here it. I for one will stand and fight if it comes to that. But I pray to god it never dose. The politicians are afraid of the tea partty people because they see whats comeing down the road. all the politicians care about is holding there sets in office so they can keep stelling more of our money.

    Yesterday I seen there are about 5 or 6 stats that are going after the Gov. for all the land they have takeing away from the people in them stats.

    I see that people are starting to open up there eyes some now. And I see what your saying about all the gangs in this country. Thats the only resson they have for going after the guns. Yet they do nothing about them.

    It's a fine line we have to walk right now, as you know as will as I do. As if the politicians see any one as a threat to what they want to do. They well just call you some kind of a nut job and take you out of the picture all to gether.

    Jack, I would give any thing to know the right answer. The only thing I see helpping is the more people that stand up and say no more to the politicians. The better chance we might have in the end.
  4. carver

    carver Moderator Supporting Member

    Jul 28, 2008
    DAV, Deep in the Pineywoods of E. Texas!
    Well written Jack, and you have asked some of the right questions. I don't pretend to have the answers, but you did ask for opinions, and suppose mine are as good as anyone's. This is what I have learned, and believe. Back in 1831 Alexis de Tocqueville visited the United States. He went home and wrote a book entitled "Democracy in America". Quoting from that book, "On my arrival in the United States the religious aspect of the country was the first thing that struck my attention; and the longer I stayed there, the more I perceived the great political consequences resulting from this new state of things". "Religion in America takes no direct part in the government of society, but it must be regarded as the first of their political institutions......I do not know whether all Americans have a sincere faith in their religion-for who can search the human heart?--but I am certain that they hold it to be indispensable to the maintenance of republican institutions. This opinion is not peculiar to a class of citizens or to a party, but it belongs to the whole nation and to every rank of society". This is no longer true in America. Samuel Adams said, "I thank God that I have lived to see my country independent and free. She may long enjoy her independence and freedom if she will. It depends on her virtue". John Adams said, "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other". Ben Franklin wrote, "Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters". I could go on and quote more of what our founding fathers had to say on this, but they were all basically of the same mind, and belief's. I feel that America has left God out of the equation, and that we are electing men and women to office that have no moral compass at all (a reflection of the country as a whole).

    Any one ever heard of the ISS? The ISS (Intercollegiate Socialist Society) was formed back in 1909 by a meeting of 100 people in New York. Chapters were established in more than 60 university and college campuses. In time the co-directors of the movement became Harry W. Laidler and Norman Thomas. Their slogan was "Production for use, not for profit". In 1921 when the USSR came to power, the word "socialism" became more repugnant, and the ISS changed it's name to "The League for Industrial Democracy".

    I wonder how many people here in America know the difference between a Democracy and a Republic?

    I pledge allegiance to the flag
    Of the United States of America
    And to the Republic
    For which it (the flag) stands.........

    You can gather that I believe we here in America will get our country back when the people again trust in God, and elect leaders that also trust in God. With out a moral compass we will fall to the powers of the world. Just as many other countries have fallen.

    What can we do? Pray; get back to God, and elect those that believe the way we do. I have joined the Tea Party movement. Yet I believe that this is not enough at this point in time. If more Americans would join in we can, and will make a difference. But the down side is that numbers alone can not win a battle if there is no plan to win it, or no strength to win it. JMHO!
  5. red14

    red14 Well-Known Member

    Aug 17, 2009
    N FLA
    Both of you are right. We need to be more vigilant and closer to our beliefs.

    We should hang together, or we shall surely be hanged separately.
  6. Gun Geezer

    Gun Geezer Well-Known Member

    Oct 5, 2009
    Central Florida
    Whether one believes in God or not is inconsequential. Religion acts as a system of limits and a set of rules that govern a person's motives as well as actions. It gives one a sense of proportion in dealing with laws enacted for the good of the majority. A secular education alone fails to instill balance as to what is legal and what is right. In the name of political correctness, we have allowed our government to remove God (our conscience or moral unit of measure) from the decisions that effect our people and our country. Judeo-Christian values are every bit as important to good citizenship and good government as is our constitution. We must get back to basics.
  7. 45nut

    45nut Well-Known Member

    Jul 19, 2006
    Dallas, TX
    Declaration of Independence
    The Unanimous Declaration
    of the Thirteen United States of America
    When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security. --Such has been the patient sufferance of these colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former systems of government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute tyranny over these states. To prove this, let facts be submitted to a candid world.

    Although we have this document and it clearly does give us the right to change or abolish this current government and institute a new government, the question you pose is the same one I have been pondering for several years. To that point I still don't have a good answer.

    Our Founding Fathers tried for over 20 years before England forced our hand to take up arms. You are indeed correct regarding the apathy and lack of knowledge regarding the edge of the slippery slope on which we stand.

    Our choice now, as I see it, is to try to make changes in the 2010 election. Very honestly, I don't think that will be enough. What needs to happen is to vote out every corrupt incumbent and vote in people who are strict constitutionalists. The chance that we can do that is very slim even with liberal democraps "retiring" at a great rate.

    The change needs to occur at the community level which is what started the TEA Party movement. However, that is even changing as we speak, er type. Sarah Palin endorsing Rick Perry? Get real. Medina is the better choice. Unfortunately, Glenn Beck is endorsing Perry and is calling Medina a Truther, which she is not. She has the same questions about the 911 Commission that Beck professed last year, but she is a threat to Perry and Beck attacks her to prop up Perry. Really? Just when I thought I found someone looking only for truth, Beck has to pull this. It makes me question with boldness that damn Yankee's motives.

    I have pondered this for a long time and I have come to the point that we, the US, may need to separate ourselves from the two parties and put the weight of The People behind a grass root third party. I know what everyone says and I still think it too. But what do we have left? We are about 40 years behind the eight ball here and the lefties have been at this for a hundred years.

    How do we catch up and awaken The People? I don't know. I think it will take an obvious attempt of Totalitarianism to awaken the sheeple and even then it will be the few and proud trying to thwart the tide of tyranny.

    I guess I don't have a good answer, but I'm willing to listen to anyone that thinks they do. :( All machismo aside, we are in the wilderness in need of a leader. I thought at one time I had found that leader, but now I'm not sure.
  8. carver

    carver Moderator Supporting Member

    Jul 28, 2008
    DAV, Deep in the Pineywoods of E. Texas!
    Let's just vote in a good Republican. Then, when we have more control, vote out those Republicans that straddle the fence. Start voteing for those that will take a pay cut, vote for less government, vote to keep jobs in America. We only want those that have a moral compass, men and women that believe in God, and stand against abortion. If necessary, once we have some control then we can go to a third party, if we need to. We can do this, but only if we stand together, divided we fall!
  9. graehaven

    graehaven Well-Known Member

    May 26, 2007
    Rochester, NY
    The answer are moot points at this moment in time.

    It's certainly not in a party, either one of them, nor in the present system. The system is broken - likely beyond repair.

    Frankly, discussion on how to "take the country back" is too little too late. The last several presidents, and congress, have done a LOT of damage. Our present POTUS is merely the icing on the cake - a socialist cake that's been baking for decades. At this point, there is NO taking it back. It's too late. That's not defeatist in viewpoint, that's pragmatic.

    You're better off talking about what you're going to do to survive what's coming our way.
  10. K1D_5150

    K1D_5150 New Member

    Jan 28, 2010
    Hutchinson, KS
    These are from another post. This is what I feel we can do on this side of the pond for the time being. Hope this helps.

    Originally Posted by Popeye View Post
    Here is a much saner take on what is happening in the USA today than that spewed forth by author and publisher of the original article.

    The Re-Establishment of America

    February 18, 2010
    By Herbert E. Meyer

    America is on the verge of something unprecedented in history: the peaceful, Constitutional replacement of our country's entire political establishment. This is what lies behind the decisions of so many elected officials, at every level, to step aside rather than fight for re-election. And it explains how the Tea Party movement can exert so much political leverage without nominating its own candidates or even without formally choosing its own leaders.

    Most of the time, we Americans don't pay much attention to politics. We focus all of our energy on our jobs, our families, and our faith. We work hard, play by the rules, and wish only to be left alone. We love our country, consider ourselves blessed to be living here, and ask little from the men and women we elect except to keep from screwing things up.

    But in just the last decade Americans were shocked by two catastrophes we hadn't imagined our political establishment would allow to happen. The first was 9-11, when 19 terrorists successfully attacked our homeland, and by doing so revealed that for years al Qaeda and its allies had been waging holy war against us. The second was the 2008 financial crash, which revealed that our economy is a house of cards built on a pile of debt so high we cannot possibly repay it.

    Republicans blame Democrats, and Democrats blame Republicans. To ordinary, non-political Americans -- who grasp intuitively, and correctly, that both parties share responsibility for these two catastrophes -- these politicians seem like children who've turned a party into a food fight. And what do parents do when a children's party gets out of control? They turn off the music, turn out the lights and send everyone home, including those few who weren't behaving badly and just got caught up in the melee.

    Americans don't like getting tangled in the details of politics. We prefer to stand back and see the big picture. (Which, by the way, helps explain the extraordinary appeal of Ronald Reagan and Sarah Palin. That's what they do, too.) What the big picture is showing now is that our entire political establishment has failed. These were the men and women, both Republicans and Democrats, we relied upon to focus on the details and by doing so to keep us safe from terrorists and to keep the world's most powerful economy from imploding. And they blew it. So we'll replace them with a wholly new establishment -- some of whom will be Republicans, others who will be Democrats, and a few Independents here and there -- and hope our next political establishment will get it right.

    In the looming political battles, persona will matter more than policy. As we move toward the 2010 elections, of course we'll ask candidates to outline their plans for how to improve our healthcare system, what to do about illegal immigration, how to bring down the unemployment rate, how to fight the war, and all the rest. But what will determine who gets elected this year won't be a set of specific policies but something simpler, and in a way much deeper: A recognition among grass-roots voters across the political spectrum that character is more important than personality, that education isn't the same thing as judgment, and that expertise without common sense is dangerous.

    Stand back from politics and you'll see the same re-establishment trend unfolding in other public arenas. Americans have decided that the Mainstream Media has failed, and so we are replacing The New York Times, the television network news departments, and all the rest with an entirely new media including Fox News and websites like American Thinker and Americans have decided that our country's education establishment has failed -- our kids are barely learning to read and write, let alone taught our country's history -- so we're seeing the rise of private schools, charter schools, and home-schooling. Would anyone like to bet that within just a few years, we'll have a wholly new financial establishment on Wall Street to replace the greedy idiots who run it now?

    The re-establishment of America won't be easy, and we'll make mistakes along the way. Some of the new people will prove to be just as worthless as they ones they replaced. And some very good people who now hold key positions in politics, the media, education and finance will be swept away by the avalanche. That's too bad, but collateral damage is unavoidable.

    No other country in history has ever attempted to replace its establishments so smoothly, so peacefully -- and so cheerfully -- as we are doing right now. And it isn't likely that any other country ever will attempt something like this. How exhilarating to realize that 234 years after our revolution, the United States is still the most dynamic, forward-looking, optimistic place on Earth. Boy, what an exciting time to be an American.
    I personally agree with this, as the 2010 elections are steamrolling in we as patriotic Americans are the ones who hold that final power to change our government. The best way is to look at the base roots and motives behind the ones we wish to elect, and dig into the political background of the official. I believe we can do this if we quit bickering and blaming one group or another and turn our backs to such childeshness and look forward to making a real difference by VOTING. Popeye is on to something here, and the talk of violence and tyranny should be left to the ACTUAL event of a failure of our political system. Right now we as a people need to focus on taking back the power to the states by doing so in the way it was designed in the first place. The foolishness and cut throat approaches this early is like trying to pull the trigger on a handgun that is on safe and has no round in the chamber, it just wont work. Make no mistake, if the time to come to arms rises, I will be on the side of the Constitution and her allies, as any true Patriot would be, rifle in hand willing to die for my family, country and fellow brethren, but lets be REAL for a change and try to make a change effectively instead of making waves that push us farther backwords. If because we own guns and advocate the one TRUE constitution, we are labeled as gun toting crazies, then we should not only prove them wrong, but prove them impotent by being the better man first and foremost. Just my little bit of soap box.

    Originally Posted by dogngun View Post
    I was born here, served my country in time of war, and I nhave no plans to move. I am not the ones cazlling for armed insurrection against teh LAWFUL ELECTED GOVERNMENT of my country, sir - your gang of thugs is doing that. The response I get from other progressive Democrats when discussing the extreme anti-American Right Wing threats of armed war is "Bring it!"

    The ones who do not belong in our country are your kind.
    Put up or shut up.


    Be careful labelling one group of people that you do not know as one thing, or risk being proven wrong. I am not a LEFTIST or a RIGHTIST, I lay blame in society 'en masse' for electing impotency and ignorance. I see flaws on both sides of the fence that are dangerously skewed from the guide post (the Constitution) that has kept this country free. We as a people should put up our political fists in the voting booths and elect those who would follow the document to the letter, regardless of party, and stop tripping over what is politically correct. There is no such thing as politically correct because there will always be someone who disagrees. I personally have no racial prejudice to anyone, my problem lies in that the ones in power have labelled our sacred document as 'outdated and flawed' and have labelled our military returning home from defending our freedom (yes this includes YOU) as 'extremist right wing nuts,' this is not just Obama but his regime and several in other high places in Washington. I personally plan to do my part at the voting booth, starting at the state level and working up, to defend our Republic from this garbage, and them as you say 'Put up or shut up,' if the time comes, rest assured, I WILL. Pick your battles, come with your mind loaded, and try to refrain from the personal attacks, because they just make you part of the problem. Do some UNBIASED research and your attitude might change. 'Till then, have a nice day.

    God bless America, and God help Her through these times.
  11. graehaven

    graehaven Well-Known Member

    May 26, 2007
    Rochester, NY
    And, again, we do NOT need new candidates with ideas on how government can FIX things - we want candidates who believe that government should get OUT OF OUR LIVES...period!

    Small government - incredibly small - like the founders intended - not this bloated behemoth that's been allowed through congressional malfeasance and fiat rule.

    The FEDeral gov't is supposed to do THREE things, and that's IT!
    1) Provide for the common defense (which INCLUDES shutting down the frickin' borders for crying out loud, and does NOT include fighting multiple wars in multiple foreign lands);
    2) Oversee interstate commerce: NOT get their fingers into every conceivable transaction so they can tax it and control it, and;
    3) COIN real money - NOT paper. Use Gold and Silver - NOT paper (fiat money) - which would force them to balance the budget based on REAL tangible assets rather than a debt instrument (the dollar) controlled by the FED.

    That's it.
  12. guns4life

    guns4life New Member

    Oct 6, 2009
    south carolina
  13. 45nut

    45nut Well-Known Member

    Jul 19, 2006
    Dallas, TX
    Sorry, double post
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2010
  14. 45nut

    45nut Well-Known Member

    Jul 19, 2006
    Dallas, TX
    Or, what graeheven said. [​IMG] [​IMG]
  15. hogger129

    hogger129 Well-Known Member

    Nov 29, 2009
    I liked your example of "1984" Jack. You seen the movie V For Vendetta? That's what I think the world will be like before too soon. Fear is their real genious. You keep people in fear and you can control them.
Similar Threads
Forum Title Date
General Discussion Wondering if we need a new heading in the firearms section... Oct 13, 2016
General Discussion blocked at my employer Jul 25, 2016
General Discussion NRA ArmsCare Firearms Insurance Apr 29, 2016
General Discussion Firearms for toddlers?! Mar 11, 2016
General Discussion A Thankyou to EVERONE on the Firearms Forum Jan 28, 2016