Random Gun Photo thread

Discussion in 'General Firearms Discussion' started by Big Mak, Mar 30, 2017.

  1. sharps4590

    sharps4590 Well-Known Member

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    As a collector of German sporting arms, those whose native language is German definitely use stutzen to describe a full stocked rifle, short or otherwise. "short rifle" is not its only meaning. I know for a fact that German, like most other languages, has more than one meaning for a word and, you should know that as well.
     
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  2. 45Auto

    45Auto Well-Known Member

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    Danke, dass du mich aufgeklärt hast.

    There are many in the English language arms collecting community who also misuse terminology. Given that I'm not actively involved with German collectors as much as I once was, I can't comment further.

    But back to the stock question. Over here in the USA (and most likely Canada and the UK) a stock going all the way up to the muzzle is a mannlicher stock. It's part of our language. To hammer home my point, look up Ruger 10/22 Mannlicher stock. There are several on ********* right now.
     
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  3. Jolson

    Jolson Well-Known Member

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    I have a soft spot for fine levers. 1017192158.jpg 0922191818.jpg
     
  4. Rothhammer1

    Rothhammer1 Well-Known Member

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    Sturm, Ruger & Co. has never referred to any of their products as "Mannlicher". Their full stocked offerings are branded and identified by Ruger as 'International' models in all of their literature.

    [​IMG]
    Ruger M77 International

    Many who advertise the Ruger International models to U.S. buyers, particularly on the 'second hand' market, use the term Mannlicher to describe them. Whether done through familiarity with the misused term or desire to identify the product offered as high quality i.e.. 'the Cadillac of...', only they could answer.

    Ruger makes excellent product, to be sure, but a Ruger International is no more a Mannlicher than this is a Rolls Royce:

    [​IMG]

    Misuse of a word for over a century does not make the misuse correct or accurate, merely convenient to those familiar with the word as misused.

    The United States has never issued a penny. Pennies were British and were valued at 12 to a shilling, 20 shillings to a pound sterling until 'decimalised' in 1971 to 100 new pence per pound. The cent has been in use in the United States since 1793, yet people commonly and erroneously call them 'pennies'.

    [​IMG]
    Penny (British)

    [​IMG]
    Cent (United States)

    Cents, dimes, and dollars are metric, by the way, as was the ten dollar (gold) eagle. The half dollar, quarter dollar, half dime and half cent were included in the Mint Act of 1792 to make change for the Spanish Dollar (8 reales) upon which the U.S. dollar was based.

    This is a buffalo:
    [​IMG]

    This is a bison:
    [​IMG]


    Just my 'two cents worth':
    [​IMG]
    Two Cent Bronze, issued 1864 - 1873.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2020 at 6:14 AM
  5. Rothhammer1

    Rothhammer1 Well-Known Member

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    Indeed:
     
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  6. Rothhammer1

    Rothhammer1 Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Jul 2, 2020
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  7. Rothhammer1

    Rothhammer1 Well-Known Member

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  8. Alpo

    Alpo Well-Known Member

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    Give it a rest.

    We get it. Wood to the muzzle is a stutzen.

    You said it. Over and over and over and over.

    Enough already.
     
  9. Rothhammer1

    Rothhammer1 Well-Known Member

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    If there's anyone accessible to us that could provide an authoritative answer to this conundrum, it should be Saxon forester, MS shooter, and historian of continental firearms, Kuduae (Axel Eichendorff).

    Here, in a post to NitroExpressForums.com in June of 2015, he clarifies and complicates the issue simultaneously in true Deustche fashion:

    Here is what I wrote some time ago for the GGCA on the German use of the word "Stutzen":
    regarding your article in RIFLE #231, p.106 on "Mannlicher" stocks, you stepped into one of the many traps of the complicated German language: Unfortunately there are three very similar verbs (two of them even spelled and spoken the same) with different meanings:
    1.) stützen or stuetzen (ü and ö are only short forms of ue and oe) = to support, to prop up. This is the one you tried to use to explain "Stutzen".
    2.) stutzen = to hesitate, to become suspicious: obviously wrong.
    3.) stutzen = to trim, to cut back, to shorten: This is the one to use! Since the 1700s the southern Germans and Austrians used Stutzen for any rifle shorter then a long infantry musket. (the Swiss in their slightly different dialect say Stutzer instead)
    For instance the Stutzen M1768 for Austrian Grenzscharfschützen = frontier sharpshooters (the Austro-Hungarian "frontier" to the Turk empire was a broad military zone with a 300 year history of skirmishes, raids and guerilla warfare): You would possibly describe this as an "Jaeger"-type flintlock over-under, combination rifle.(one barrel rifled for accurate shooting, the other smooth for rapid reloading) Yes, it was military issue!
    Another example:The military straight pull M95 Mannlicher came in three designations:
    Gewehr M95: Long infantry rifle with 30" barrel
    Karabiner M95: carbine for cavalry use with 20" barrel and sling attachment on the left side of the stock.
    Stutzen M95: short rifle for special (mountain-, artilllery-) troops, 20" barrel, same length as carbine, but sling swivels on the bottom like the rifle.
    So the Austrians were apt to call any rifle a Stutzen, even the 24" barreled, half stocked, 7x64 or 8x60 M1925 Mannlicher-Schoenauer is variously called the "Hochgeschwindigkeitsstutzen" or "Hochrasanzstutzen" in old catalogs.
    Southern Germans, Bavarians, also called heavy, full length, half stocked Schuetzen target rifles "Scheibenstutzen" or "Feuerstutzen", the look alike indoor 4 mm target rifles "Zimmerstutzen".
    So originally the purely southern German, Austrian and Swiss word was neither connected to short rifles or full length foreends.
    In Germany proper, except the southernmost part neighboring Austria and Switzerland, the use of the word Stutzen or Stutzer for a rifle was totally unknown until after 1900! Instead, short rifles were called Karabiner and full stocks were circumscribed as stocked to the muzzle.
    When Steyr started selling their Mannlicher-Schoenauer sporting rifles in 1905, the short barreled, full stock, double set trigger versions became the most popular in continental Europe. (The British preferred the long barreled, single trigger, half stocked versions) As the Austrians called both versions "Stutzen" in their catalogs, only then this became a German household word for a full stocked, short rifle! So, the expression "Stutzen" for a full stocked short rifle is hardly older then your "Mannlicher stock"! (Well,at least over here Mannlicher is still a protected trade mark, while Stutzen is not!)
    By now "Stutzen" in common German use means a short, about 50 cm = 20" barrel rifle with a full length stock up to the muzzle. Half stocked short barreled rifles are not called "Stutzen" in common German parlance (except the extreme South), while longer barreled, full stocked examples like the 60 cm barrel Mannlicher-Schoenauer NO below are described sometimes as "mit Stutzenschäftung" = stocked like a Stutzen, though they are not Stutzens.
    So Dorleac's wonderful K actioned, 22" barrel rifle shown above is a "borderline Stutzen" at best, as the barrel length is 2" longer than a real Stutzen, but still 2" shorter than the German standard rifle barrel.


    Now, if that didn't put questions where the answers are?
    In summation, the term stutzen, according to renowned expert Kuduae, has been for centuries a proper European term for various particular styles of firearms, mostly short rifles. 'Stutzen' was more commonly used as descriptor in Austria and Southern Germany of locally made full stocked carbines at the dawn of the twentieth century until it became more widely known due to worldwide distribution and marketing of full stocked, Austrian made, Steyr Mannlicher Schoenauers after 1905.

    [​IMG]
    Mannlicher Schoenauer with full length stock

    The thread, with some lovely Stutzen by Dorleac and Dorleac, built on original Oberndorf Mauser actions: http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Number=262467
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2020 at 2:14 AM
  10. Rothhammer1

    Rothhammer1 Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
    Stutzen.

    Repetition has value in the learning process.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2020 at 1:08 AM
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  11. Jolson

    Jolson Well-Known Member

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  12. Rothhammer1

    Rothhammer1 Well-Known Member

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  13. Firedog

    Firedog Well-Known Member Supporting Member

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  14. Alpo

    Alpo Well-Known Member

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  15. Jolson

    Jolson Well-Known Member

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    No. No modifications to this gun at all.