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Discussion Starter #21
GO-GET ANOTHER BEER

1 were not attacking Saddam just for his connection with alQaeda...nobody said Iraq did 9/11...however Saddam has bee linked to al Qaeda and we DID attack the faction in northern Iraq that is the link
2 Although a lot of terrorist came from Saudi ...Saudi gov't does not support or supply them ...its individuals same basic thing in all the other countries on your list. You see in this case it’s the other way around ...the Iraq gov't support's terrorism ...not the same...now go get me another beer !!
 

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The Saud family is, in effect, the Saudi Goverment....and many members of that family have made large contributions to "so-called" Islamic charties that funnelled funds to Al Queda.

Osama Bin Ladin is a Saudi, as were 18 of the 19 highjackers.....hardly a coincidence.
 

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Discussion Starter #23
Officially the Saudi Gov't doesn't support terrorist ....independent individual's such as Bin Laden that are known terrorist involved in 9/11 and we are in pursuit of him and Al Qaeda no matter where they hide ...Saddam is a known threat and terrorist supporter ....but we are waging war on him & his regime because for 12 years he has disregarded the cease fire agreement and is in possession of WMD's and working to achieve nukes.
If the Saudi Gov't ever became a similar threat we would do the same...apply sanctions and use diplomacy until we’re blue in the face and thousand's of innocent people have died at their hands or millions as in Saddams case...then we would eliminate the threat ...no, indeed , its not a coincidence ...we are still after Bin and his crew and 9/11 isn't THE reason we're going after Saddam ...its just one more nail in his coffin ,a little ''icing on the cake''... we would look silly declaring war on every country that has some individual's or terrorist hiding in it...hell there’s terrorist here in the U.S. but we don't support & train them. You are getting confused ....this war aint about 9/11 ...it’s about removing an evil from the earth
 

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I would also add that the Saudis have repeatedly given us assistance in our wars against Saddam. They allowed us to station troops in their country, they give us information, etc. They may have problems with their citizens becoming terrorists, but they have also gone above and beyond in helping us. This type of "goodwill" goes a long way.
 

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Discussion Starter #25
A little bio of the man some of you don't think we have a reason to 'pick' on

The Chemical Solution
Then Saddam made a fateful decision for the Kurdish people. His cousin, Ali Hassan Al Majid - now known as 'Chemical Ali' - was appointed the governor of Northern Iraq and carried out the plan.

“Tell him I will strike. I will strike with chemicals and kill them all. What is the international community going to say? The hell with them and the hell with any other country in the world that objects.” translated from an audio tape of Ali obtained by the U.S.


Thousands of innocent people died on the streets of Halabja.


Again and again helicopters flew over Kurdish settlements throughout northern Iraq releasing clouds of lethal gases and leaving bodies piled in the streets.

Then on March 16, 1988 the Iraqis flew over the Kurdish town of Halabja. Within a hour, over 5,000 innocent men, women and children died on the streets.

Many tried to hide in basements, unaware that they would provide no protection against a chemical attack. Tens of thousands of others fled into nearby mountain caves where the deadly fumes took their lives days later.

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/kurds/attack.html
 

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I'm not saying that Saddam is innocent. I'm just saying that US is waging war on Iraq is not based on threat assesment, not a part of a counterattack, but a political decision that I'm sick of.

TF118
If you think Saddam is the worst thing that could happen to Kurds, research the Turkish atrocities against them a bit.

riderbob
1. Does that mean you have to support your church and your government no matter what they do? I'm an agnostic POLE myself and I find criticising my goverment way more often than I'd like to.

2. I'm unfamiliar with this abbreviation, but I'm thankful for any help he and/or any others provide.
Of course Poles have a 'socialist' attitude. We were a 'socialist' country for a quarter of US history. Americans would have a socialist attitude as well, had their country fallen inside USSR sphere of influence after WWII.
Freedom of will is a God given right, as stated in the Bible, but imprisonment and oppression have their place in the Bible as well.

3. It's nice to hear you know something about Polish history. Yes, there were some protests in the 60's, 70's and in 1980, which in the long run placed Poland in the danger of a Soviet invasion and pushed the government at that time to put Poland under Martial Law for 3 years. Those were nothing compared to the uprisings agains Tzarist Russia and Germany, when they occupied Poland. Poland was occupied territory longer than US exists. We were freed of course, twice: once by Napoleon on his way to Russia and the second time by Russians on their way to Germany.

4. And therefore starting a war makes you Good?

5. Thank you.

1952Sniper
But Iraq didn't 'hit you', nor do you have any proof they were preparing to, right. This is not counterattack or retaliation, this is a pre-emptive strike on a country which doesn't have the means to attack you.

I never said Iraq doesn't support terrorism, I just said it isn't the only country which does.

If Iraqis weren't supposed to hide something why would you send the inspectors in the first place? I've not seen any amount of forbidden armament that could be seriously called an 'arsenal'. Honesty, truthfulness and openness about their support for terrorists got them the war. What are they supposed to do anyway? Hide the things that the US doesn't like and show what they'd like to see?

I'd like to see the US supporting the UN effort. US military might is a powerful deterrent, but it won't work unless there's real chance of avoiding the attack. The first reports of Iraq being uncooperative flooded in after the US made their threats and started concentrating troops for an attack, if I remember correctly. What use is cooperating with UN representatives in destroying your weapons if the US is going to attack anyway?

I mean overkill as in 'targeting to destroy the whole Iraqi military, which is no threat to US, so it requires support in volatile conditions in Middle East, instead on concentrating on identified terrorist targets, which are a threat to the US'.

Poland is obviously backing US up on this. All the views presented here are mine and are in no way representative of the stance of the Polish government.

I wish I had your faith in your government. So far I've heard of a chemical factory and protective suits. It doesn't prove a chemical warfare project to me.

So what you're saying the terrorist supporters, who are allies of the US are good, the rest is bad. :cool:
 

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Discussion Starter #27 (Edited)
GGB

So you think we should leave poor Saddam alone & go after Turkey ? I have not looked in on the situation between the Turks & Kurds yet however that said I think your clouding the issue and also its clear you have no knowledge of WHY we are at war with Saddam ....remember the Gulf War in 91 ? Remember the CEASE FIRE AGREEMENT ? The original Gulf War NEVER ENDED ...there was a CEASE FIRE that had certain terms to be met....12 years later and Saddam still has NOT COMPLIED WITH THE CEASE FIRE TERMS...make no mistake ...this is not a 'new' war...just a continuance of the one started by Saddam in 91. The 9/11 attack by AlQaeda only make us grow more impatient with Saddam's continuing defiance and the fact that he has WMD's and is willing to usd them along with his support of the very terrorist that were responsable for 9/11 means that its safe to assume that there is more than a slight chance that he would supply these people with chemical agents ...and thats an underestimate.
The UN inspections produced only what Saddam allowed them to. He denied access to places they needed to inspect ...he moved his chemical weapons around and hid them ...The UN inspection teem was Saddams puppet ...he pull the strings and he controled what they found...no my friend this is still the Gulf War of 91 , phase 3...phase 1 - eject him from Kuwait, phase 2 - supervise implication of the agreement, 12 years of deplomacy later, Saddam flipping us the bird regarding the terms of cease fire
phase 3, Iraqi Freedom, enforcing the agreement...following through with what we said would happen if he didn't comply...Saddam thought the war ended and he claims that he won ! Because we didn't remove him from power...however as I pointed out, the Gulf War never ended.
In case you haven't followed any of my other postings I'm a GWV and I'm terminally ill from exposure to saddams sarin nerve gas. The VA has determined this and awarded me service connection status for the exposure. ...I've spent about 5 years in that region with special opp's before, during and after...these people do not think as we do...their thought process is liken to the stone age (refering to the exteremists) they only understand one thing...brute force and to them the human life has no value & they think that some how we are inferior to them...they will stop at nothing to kill as many Americans as possible even at the expence of their own worthless lives ...the only difference between Saddam and Al Qaeda is Saddam has his own country and he rules it.
 

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rules...

GGB

OK here is a little clarity on a few of your questions.

1. NO I do not follow in lock step with my church or government.
Blind obedience in following Satan (i.e. Evil). I am what is called an Independant Conservitive. That is my right. I have and will always question the moral compass of any and all who choose to take away Free angency. I 'm kinda funny that way.

2. I understand oppression and persecution quite well, having family members who fled opression in Europe and even in this great country. We had to fight for our religous freedom and even left and went into the frontier of North America, so that we could exercise or freedom of religon.It is part of my heritage and has made me and my views what they are today and forever. And yes oppression and imprisionment have their place. But IMHO it has made us appreciate Freedom even more. And The LDS stand for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

3. Again People wanting free Agency ?

4. Helping people obtain freedom is good, but is in some circumstances war is the only way to obtain it. I have had some reservation with this war, mainly because we were not asked to help. And we did not help after the first war when the citizens of Iraq were trying to overthrow Saddam. I guess you could say they just didn't sell the whole thing to me. Or i just am not following in lock step. (wife says "AGAIN")

5. You are most Welcome and again a great post . So Thank you again.

Rider
 

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Discussion Starter #29
AGAIN NOT A NEW WAR

AGAIN I REMIND YOU ALL ...THIS IS NOT A NEW WAR ...THE FIRST WAR IN 91 HAS NOT BEEN ENDED ...WE ONLY CALLED A CEASE FIRE...MEANING PUTTING HOSTIL ACTION ON HOLD WHILE WE OVERSEE THE COMPLIANCE TO THE AGREEMENT...IT HAS NOT BEEN COMPLIED WITH FOR 12 YEARS AND SADDAM NEVER INTENDS TO COMPLY...SO NOW AFTER TWELVE YEARS OF BEING JACKED **F BY SADDAM WE EITHER ENFORCE THE AGREEMENT ,..AS WE ARE NOW DOING...OR WE LET IT GO AND LOSE CREDIBILITY
The latter choice would only send the message that we don't back our word and you can get away with anything against the U.S. because they wont do anything.:eek:
 

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Ok, I keep asking this question over and over and over, but to my knowledge nobody has answered it.

Go Get Beer, I'm asking you now:

Given Saddam's apparent disregard for human rights, UN resolutions, and international treaties, what would your course of action have been with Iraq? If you think war is wrong here, what would you do? Would you be content to just leave Saddam alone and let him do whatever he wants? Is that actually what you're suggesting? Or perhaps you would have given him more time to comply with UN resolution 1441?

I'm eagerly awaiting your answer.

 

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Screw the bastids, clean their clocks! Dats my opinion!

Also,

Hey Ruff! Dat boy on one knee got some bigass tities!
 

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Hey Tac! That boy on one knee ain't no boy... that's my Aunt Bertha!



 

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Course not, TF118! I got ALL the looks in the family!
:p
 

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Well I see it's been 2 days since I asked my question, with no response. That's usually what I get when I ask an anti-war person the same question: a blank look and silence.

Lends a lot of credence to the anti-war argument, huh?
 
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I am glad I have the resolve to stay out of this one. I don't have the ability to remain as civil as you guys have been.
 
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Blame it on Cointoss

I was doing so good and then Cointoss sent me this and I could not think of a better place to put it than in this thread.


I see a lot of people yelling for peace but I have not heard of one
plan
for peace. " Books, not Bombs" won't work. The head mullahs won't let
anyone read them. If they do, they poke their eyes out.

Here's the plan:
1. We will apologize to the world for our interference in their
affairs, past & present. You know, Hitler, Mussolini and the rest of
them 'good old boys'. We will never "interfere" again.

2. We will withdraw our troops from all over the world, starting with
Germany, South Korea and the Philippines. They don't want us there. We
would station troops at our borders. No more sneaking through holes in
the fence.

3. All illegal aliens have 90 days to get their affairs together and
leave. We'll give them a free trip home. After 90 days the remainder
will be gathered up and deported immediately, regardless of who or
where they are. France would welcome them.

4. All future visitors will be thoroughly checked and limited to 90
days
unless given a special permit. No one from a terrorist nation would be
allowed in. If you don't like it there, change it yourself, don't hide
here. Asylum would not ever be available to anyone. We don't need any
more cab drivers.

5. No "students" over age 21. The older ones are the bombers. If they
don't attend classes, they get a "D" and it's back home baby.

6. The US will make a strong effort to become self sufficient energy
wise. This will include developing non polluting sources of energy but
will require a temporary drilling of oil in the Alaskan wilderness. The

caribou will have to cope for a while.

7. Offer Saudi Arabia and other oil producing countries $10 a barrel
for
their oil. If they don't like it, we go someplace else.

8. If there is a famine or other natural catastrophe in the world, we
will not "interfere". They can pray to Allah or whomever, for seeds,
rain, cement or whatever they need. Besides' most of what we give them
is stolen or given to the army. The people who need it most get very
little, if any anyway.

9. Ship the UN Headquarters to an island some place. We don't need the
spies and fair weather friends here. Besides, it would make a good
homeless shelter or lockup for illegal aliens.

10. All Americans must go to charm and beauty school. That way, no one
can call us "Ugly Americans" any longer.

Now, isn't that a winner of a plan?
 

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Discussion Starter #39
Sniper ....Yea bro, them anti-war ACTIVISTS clearly haven't got any I D what 'n' hell their talkin bout...the only thing I see is the people who claim to be against violance go outa their way to stir up shiite with anti-war protest that more often than not become out of control and violant...however on the otherhand you notice the support rallies are peacefully carried out ?
No they have no rational or logical answers because they can't comprehend the true situation or the true danger and they don't want to know.
I think they just don't care what they protest...just look for any reason to show their a$$
 

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Hee hee, Warpig, I see how long your resolve lasted......

Here's my disclaimer: I fully agree with the intent of anti-war activists saying that war is evil. It sure is. It is horrible to everyone involved. I would not wish a war on anyone. So, in this regard, I think it's noble that the anti-war protesters are trying to get this point across.

But the truth of the matter is, war is necessary. If these peaceniks have a better idea, I'd love to hear it. But I just haven't heard ANY coherent plan from their camp. All they say is we shouldn't be fighting a war. They offer no solution other than to keep doing what we were doing with the inspectors, no matter how feeble the attempt, no matter how ineffective the results. IMHO this is akin to trying to kill an elephant with a BB gun. It just ain't gonna happen. You gotta pull out the BIG guns and do the job right.

TF118, you hit the nail on the head. These protesters don't care about what they're protesting; they just want to be on TV and show the world that they're pissed off about their lives. If they're not protesting the war, they'd be protesting something else. They have no solution to anything in life, other than to make a bunch of damn noise. They are seagulls. They fly in, make a bunch of noise, crap all over everything, then leave.

Most of you who have known me for any length of time know that I'm not married to the Bush ideology. I have a lot of questions about what our President has done and is doing. I do not blindly accept anything. But given the greater forces at work here, I support his actions in Iraq. And if you will recall, I did not always support his stance. But especially in times of war, I will not badmouth my President, I will not protest like a foolish child. I have weighed the issues and made the choice to support what we, the greatest nation on earth, are doing.

And one last thing: I don't find fault in the basic premise of protesting. It is your American right to protest. But for God's sake, man, at least have a good idea of what you're doing. Have a good reason to protest. Have an alternative in mind. Don't just blindly say you don't like what we're doing, when you have no better solution. That's all I'm asking for, is a better solution....
 
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