Santa Clarita ATF Bungle / House Burning ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 )

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by ruffitt, Mar 3, 2003.

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  1. ruffitt

    ruffitt *TFF Admin Staff* In Heaven Now

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    rayra
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    (8/31/01 11:06:57 pm)
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    ezSupporter
    Santa Clarita ATF Bungle / House Burning
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    wow, 9hrs old already, and surprised y'all aren't discussing it.

    Seems the local ATF boys and the LASD (LosAngeles Sheriff's Dept) went knocking in an upscale neighborhood, to serve some form of warrant and speak with a man about his posing as a Deputy US Marshal.
    Words were exchanged at the door, door slammed, agents et al started breaking in through nearby window, man shot at them. A 17-yr deputy was shot and later pronounced dead at the local hospital.
    The cordoned off the neighborhood, several attempts at contact were made, shot were reportedly fired from within the house. Much tear gas was pumped in. At one point the garage door swung up, the man's girlfriend exited, garage closed again.
    Short time later, house still filled with teargas and flash-bangs, upper rooms caught fire.
    Shielded fire engines pumped water on adjacent houses to prevent fire's spread, but everybody let the house burn (in hopes that gunman would come out?).
    Pretty much once the upper walls fell into the inferno, and there were no corners downstairs NOT on fire, they pretty much figured he was dead, and coverage switched to LASD reps mourning the fallen officer.
    Looking for more updates now.
    Much idle / uninformed news anchor commentary and discussion with neighbors and passers-by, some mention made of many weapons, and the man telling some of his neighbors (as well) that he was a Marshal.
    I've seen nothing yet on what the real substance of the warrant was.

    I have to make the following observation / commentary -
    If you know / suspect that an individual may be breaking the law, and you have information that individual is heavily armed, why wouldn't you (as a national or massive county law enforcement agency) follow the person around, and take them totally unsuspecting in the local grocery parking lot, rather than attempt to take him in his own arsenal?
    Why wouldn't serve a search warrant on a premises, when you know the person is NOT home, to seperate them from their weapons??
    Why would you risk a mass shooting, standoff in a housing tract, instead of taking this person somewhere / somewhen else??

    I'm off to scour the Net for more details, anyone have any??

    BTW - the reason I bring this up (other than as a policy matter), is it happened in my back yard, and for a brief time today, I was stuck behind the barricades / blockaded highways.

    Rich

    rayra
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 57
    (8/31/01 11:09:36 pm)
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    here's a link from CNN:
    www.cnn.com/2001/US/08/31...index.html

    TallTLynn
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1836
    (8/31/01 11:10:09 pm)
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    rayra - it's playing out in a lot of other web sites right now - hot and heavy to say the least.

    I'm glad you are okay but your logic may be too much here. After all they could of taken care of the Waco incident by grabbing him on his daily run but they didn't. Sometimes I'm not too sure how well they think these things out before they execute the arrest/search warrant.

    rayra
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 58
    (8/31/01 11:19:20 pm)
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    agreed. trying to discuss exactly that, without bashing on the agency morons, but very hard (for me) not to.
    I think it's all about / fundamental to the whole Police / Big Brother mentality / training - their training emphasize 'taking control' or 'dominating' a situation, even if those efforts create the very scenario that feeds that escalation.

    time and again we read about such escalations - the homeowner living next door who wrongly gets his door broken in, and gets shot defending his home - the women sleeping in her car on the side of the highway, gun in lap, police unable to rouse her, and when they smash her car window in, and she wakes up pointing the piece, they HAVE to kill her...

    somehow there's got to be a way to bring attention to this trend, and get some kind of corrective action taken.
    easy to say 'fire'em', easy to say 'vote'em out', but these agencies have lives of their own.
    The whole processes of violent encounters needs to be addressed, and re-invented from the Federal level all the way down to Bubba in a town with not stoplights.

    I'd appreciate any firearm-related forum links - this is about the only one I visit, only other firearm links / sites I visit are strictly for shopping.

    Rich

    bondai
    Moderator
    Posts: 442
    (8/31/01 11:21:51 pm)
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    Thats not the way the ATF operates. They are going to use their JBT tactics and force the issue until someone dies.Thats their style.







    rayra
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 59
    (8/31/01 11:23:02 pm)
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    ezSupporter
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    here's another news link:

    www.nbc4la.com/

    rayra
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 60
    (8/31/01 11:36:32 pm)
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    I'll bite, what's 'JBT'?

    wait, think I figured it out - Jack Booted Thug??

    TallTLynn
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1838
    (8/31/01 11:39:18 pm)
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    bondai - having personally known several ATF agents and FBI agents in my lifetime I can say that in general they are not the way that incidents like this play them out to be.

    I truly think it is the idiots in command (way up high) that cause shit like this to happen and that most of the agents wouldn't dream of doing things this stupidly.

    T out

    bondai
    Moderator
    Posts: 443
    (9/1/01 12:31:20 am)
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    Tell that to the people who were murdered at Waco. I don't buy that "It was someone elses decision" theory. It wasn't the bosses shooting up the place or lobbing CS gas canisters through the windows. I was just following orders is not an answer, it is an excuse...and a very bad one at that.







    gpostal
    Moderator
    Posts: 607
    (9/1/01 9:28:15 am)
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    as soon as everyone realizes that ,they are better than us mere civilians the better off we will be ,we live by one constitution they live by another, we all must conform to their ways {after all they are the law},and treat them like the gods they are ,even if it is written in our constitution to protect us from just these type of tyrants

    bondai
    Moderator
    Posts: 445
    (9/1/01 11:43:56 am)
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    I think that this photo pretty much says it all. Thats a damn M60 mounted to the top of a Sheriffs vehicle. This is somehow suppose to make me feel more secure and more safe.Knowing that these trigger happy JBT's are running loose on the streets.They are worse than the Gang Bangers and drug dealers.Whats the difference,they use the same tactics. Whats next folks Abrams battle tank patrol cars. Wake up.





















    Edited by: bondai at: 9/1/01 1:11:44 pm

    rayra
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    (9/1/01 12:18:05 pm)
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    saw that. Also saw the LAPD's SWAT scout car being hauled up on a semi/flatbed.
    They were obstensibly brought up to help in the evacuations of the neighbors, which brings me back to my original point -

    These agencies risked many innocent peoples' lives by approaching this whacko in his own home, instead of taking him unawares somewhere else.
    How hard would it be to dogpile someone in a parking lot somewhere??

    More info on the shooter in the papers this morning, Beck (the bad guy) was a cop for 1 year in '88, with the Arcadia police dept, but was sacked. Went on to a life of crime. Busted / jailed in '94 for probation violations / gun possession, did ~ 6 years, just recently out and off probation.

    Not faulting the agencies' choice of 'target', but completely faulting their methods...

    Off to go find some national message boards (CNN, MSNBC, etc.), to drop in some comments about their chosen tactics - maybe something will end up on the Sunday political shows

    Rich

    Robert Harden
    Member
    Posts: 24
    (9/1/01 12:21:40 pm)
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    no comment.

    Okay maybe a small one. The media is the media, I'm sure they captured all the facts exactly as they played out on the scene.

    As far as right and wrong, I don't know I wasn't there. But a deputy lost his life. While you guys complain about the way in which it was carried out, a casket with an American flag is being carried by six people that loved and cared for this 17 year veteran. Right or wrong, he died trying to protect the very constitution that you guys quibble over. And for 17 years he responded to the door of people that called for help, he responded with his life one last time. Until you fully understand that, you will never fully understand at all. Maybe if you that complain about the law, would swear in, and walk our mile, maybe then we would finally have a perfect judicial system.


    Living Life as a K-9 Officer / EagleWolf Forum

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    bondai
    Moderator
    Posts: 447
    (9/1/01 2:17:14 pm)
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    Robert. I did not mean to diminish the sacrifice made by the officer that was killed. I am sure that he was a decent caring man who was devoted to public safety. Not all police officers are evil thugs looking for a reason to blow some one away.

    The point is that things are out of control. This officer lost his life for what?? Instead of using logical thought and a precise plan, the police agencies involved decided that the use of brute force and violence was once again the answer to this problem. I cannot and will not beleive that there was not a better way to resolve the issue with this person. If this man was indeed a convicted felon and known to be heavily armed then why confront him in his home where he is sure to be well armed and prepared.

    Certainly this man had to leave his house sometime. Would it not have been better to roll up on him when he was going for groceries or beer or MORE AMMO. Its the same scenario we saw at Waco. Numerous oppurtunities presented themselves to arrest David Koresh. The ATF and other involved agencies decided that taking him by force was a better option. In protecting society from one so called whacko, almost 80 innocent women and children parished in the blazing inferno that was the end result of this "attack on the constitution".

    How many innocent peoples lives were put in Jeapordy by this most recent fiasco. What if the fire would have spread to adjacent homes? What about the exchange of gunfire. Please explain the need for an M60 machine gun to be involved.

    Police forces are exchanging brute force for logic and in the end it spells disaster.It spells disaster for the rank and file officers who are involved and sometimes killed, it spells disaster for innocent people everywhere when the bullets start to fly.

    I understand a lot more than you think I do. I am a law abiding citizen and I intend on remaining that way. I have respect for LEO's. My next door neighboor is a retired Maricopa County Sheriff and I have a Glendale city police officer that lives right accross the street, we are all good friends. I may complain about the law because many are stupid and unenforceable and you know that, but as a LEO you have no choice and as a law abiding citizen I have no choice because I choose to obey the law of the land..just as you choose to enforce it.

    The police serve many functions in todays society. Correct me if I am wrong but upholding the law is the primary one. It is a LEO's job to inforce the law, right? Although the words
    "To serve and protect" look good on the side of the police car the bottom line is that it is not your's or any other LEO's job to protect me or my family, thats my job. If you do your job, it makes mine easier. But please don't tell me that you are protecting or serving me while you are burning down the house next to mine or shooting up the neighborhood with M60's or MP-5's. Please understand that this is not a personal attack on you. I am not alone, there are many people in this country who have a bad feeling for LEO's in general, especially those associated with the government. Sometimes the use of force is necessary, but not at the expense of innocent people and certainly not at the exspense of the constitution.







    LIKTOSHOOT
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 2104
    (9/1/01 2:31:53 pm)
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    This crap sickens me, this officer lost his life for naught. Spin it how you want....that is the truth. BATF made this officer the point man and put him in the line of fire.......This makes me sick to my stomach!!!!! They show up with BATF Agents, why? then make a Sheriff deliver the knock and take the first fire. Since when are their lives more important???? I guess BATF thought he might shoot, probably needed a shield. Nice toy car with a "MILITARY" M-60 MG........lets see, would that go through a wall and travel down the road to a neighbors house......oh! they removed a three block area, safety first for a round that can travel over a mile......HOSE`UM. I forgot, cops are trained and good shots.....like shooting at each other 33 times and hit no one... Storming house`s for petty crimes, felon or not. Told his neighbors he was a US Marshal......WOOOOO))) thats a mean a nasty bad guy. Better call in the BIG BOYS....
    "am not" R2

    bondai
    Moderator
    Posts: 449
    (9/1/01 3:10:32 pm)
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    I am sending an E-mail to my reps this weekend and also one to John Ashcroft. I am tired of this bullshit. The LEO's are becoming more dangerous than the criminals they are suppose to be "protecting us from". I am not afraid of criminals, punks, drug dealers or crack addicts. I am afraid of the police state that is forming right in our own neighborhoods. Armored vehicles, M60's, MP-5"s,CS gas... Bullshit. The politicians are to blame for this fix we are getting into. Let them know they are screwing up, before its too late.


    AGunguy
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 182
    (9/1/01 4:01:45 pm)
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    The officer that was the goat for the BATF JBTs was a sacrificial goat at best. They used him because he was dumb enough to accept the order.

    The only way this crap is ever going to stop is for the BATF and all their paramilitary thugs get their asses creamed by some tough exmilitary types that know how to get the job done. If these agencies ever got invaded much like the tactics they employ (in the middle of the night) they would think twice about pulling that crap on the American people anymore. And especially if it finds its way to their homes and love ones it would really make them understand what vulnerability is. But as long as our political hacks in Congress and the H & R and including our President let them get away with it...it will be an ongoing thing.

    Gunguy

    Edited by: AGunguy at: 9/1/01 5:03:17 pm

    kdubaz
    Moderator
    Posts: 583
    (9/1/01 6:28:00 pm)
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    Hey, Bondai -

    Remember the M-60 TANK that Sheriff Joe Arpio has on the flatbed trailer he hauls around for his "demonstration" of departmental equipment in his fight agains crime?! Think it's got more'n a M60 MG on it!
    Keep below the ridgeline!

    Robert Harden
    Member
    Posts: 27
    (9/1/01 8:25:55 pm)
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    Don't misinterpret me. I, like I said above, do not have the facts, nor am I saying its right or wrong. I am simply saying that a man lost his life, which is the most unfortunate part of this whole ordeal. And above all is the most important to remember. We know what the media has told us. We do not know however what actually went down. What his crimes were. (You know the media does not have access to everything, believe it or not.) I can see some of you guys pitching the same fit if, picture this, adn per your request........Attempt made to arrest a criminal in the parking lot of the local Wal-Mart. As officers attempted to arrest bad guy, he gets freaky and paranoid, punches the accelerator and simutaneously guns down your wife and kids as she comes out of the store with your requested black powder. He continues down mainstreet running over all the neighborhood dogs.......I bet you guys would then be saying, why didnt they just surround his house, and arrest him there, instead of doing it at a damn store where my wife and kids were?? This is out of control. Can you guys not understand that sometimes sh** just happens?

    Again, I'm not saying what they did was right or wrong, just stating that until you walk our mile, you will not fully understand. If I had all the facts, I might agree with you however, and it very well could have been a bad rap.

    Living Life as a K-9 Officer / EagleWolf Forum

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    Robert Harden
    Member
    Posts: 28
    (9/1/01 8:34:20 pm)
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    Bond, thank you for the fact that you recognize that a man did lose his life. Right or wrong, he's life is over. We don't live in a perfect world, if we did, I'd be jobless, and I could be sitting around drinking moonshine and shooting at cans in my compound, warming my hands on a burning barrell with the rest of you bare foot buck tooth Ruby Ridge wannabe's. j/k

    Living Life as a K-9 Officer / EagleWolf Forum

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    LIKTOSHOOT
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 2107
    (9/1/01 8:57:26 pm)
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    I am continually amazed at that statement, if a frog had wings...it wouldn`t bust his ass, landing. Drive through town running down people, wives, children.....you might change your thinking. Doubtful. I see a growing tread to excuse wrongs done, if you tell it long enough....some may think it so, it is not. In general, I have always held all types of law enforcement in high regards, lately it has begun slipping, and each time an event such as this happens.....it slips more. The BATF didn`t just swing by the sheriff`s office and say..." HEA! let`s go over here.....you guy`s come too." Give me a break! This is just like the bumbling drug raids on the wrong house......everyone in the neighborhood knows which house it is......but the law enforcement shows up at the wrong house and uses force (rightfully so) IF THEY WERE IN THE RIGHT HOUSE!!!!! I bet this guy never left his house...right. Funny how law enforcement can go deep cover among criminals, but can`t sneak up on some guy going to the store, gas station, ect., why......need some press and camera time.....we`s protecting you???? It has become the norm to make a big showing....."to control the evironment" "get the upper hand" Notice they will spend days negociating a suicide, but if it`s guns or drugs......Full combat gear and damn the torpedoes, we`s having fun tonight.....gotta have that rush. The sadest thing here is a man payed for it with his life, a unjust reason too. Sickens me to the pit of my colon. BunkerBuddy/LTS
    "am not" R2

    Robert Harden
    Member
    Posts: 30
    (9/1/01 9:15:49 pm)
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    I'm worried about your blood pressure LTS. Come on lets go have a drink, and talk about the pretty girls walking by.

    Living Life as a K-9 Officer / EagleWolf Forum

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    - Everyone welcome.


    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1508
    (9/1/01 9:20:00 pm)
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    Robert, I appreciate the humor, even if some won't.

    What I don't agree with is the "walk the mile" talk.
    EVERY professional, or for that matter, ANYONE can say that, in an attempt to imply that the OTHER has no knowledge or does not have the required intelligence to question his/her actions.

    This is a cop out. And unfortunately, an attitude way too many LEOs cop. The thin blue line is a difficult and sometimes thankless job, but it is just that...a job. A job in which the ultimate BOSS is the civilian tax-payer, who many times is viewed as the adversary by some of that same blue line.

    Pinning on a badge does NOT make anyone superior, nor does it suddenly endow someone with intelligence he or she did not have beforehand. It does NOT make him/her an expert on the law, or firearms, or psychology, or even criminology for that matter. He or she may very well BE an expert in one or more of these areas, but many civilians may be also, and in some cases know MORE.

    I grieve WHENEVER an officer, or for that matter, a store detective, or a security guard, or even a civilian attempting to intervene in the absence of a cop loses his/her life, but I firmly believe whenever an officer DOES make the ultimate sacrifice, SOMEBODY screwed up, and we must learn to avoid the same thing in the future. We have to look everywhere, and MAYBE the tactics we have seen lately are to blame.

    Saying "Sh!t happens" is also a cop out.

    Tell it to the SEALS, where ANY loss of life is viewed as FAILURE, and as such, unacceptable. IT may be failure of the unit, of the mission goals, of the officers, of the command structure, of the tactics, of the training,lof the weapons choice, or just possibly, of the SEAL himself.

    Am I a Cop? No. But have I been involved in Law enforcement? For the past 20+ years in various capacities INCLUDING officer training...

    I STILL firmly believe over 90% of all confrontations are best solved by using one's brains and mouth...too many individuals or agencies shortcut one or the other just way too many times...and unfortunatly, Leo's AND innocent civilians, and yes, even criminals, die needlessly because of it.


    Well, I didn't win the Powerball, so I still collect Russian Crap and variants thereof. ( And am darn happy I can!)

    LIKTOSHOOT
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 2108
    (9/1/01 9:39:06 pm)
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    Blood pressures fine.....very low, with a pulse of 65. I`m just barely warm and I don`t think the wife would like me lookin at other women.....but I would throw a few back with ya and would be happy to do so, long as ya don`t ask me certain questions
    "am not" R2

    Robert Harden
    Member
    Posts: 33
    (9/1/01 9:47:44 pm)
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    Polish, you come with us, lets go see the pretty girls.

    Walk our mile can be implied many ways. Walk our mile-see how we don't always get the training we need. Walk our mile-See how we are out gunned at times, a pistol vs. and automatic. Walk our mile-So much law, its difficult to learn it all. Walk our mile-We are human too. Walk our mile-I hate being turned down for a school I desperately wanted to attend. Walk our mile-Sometimes we are bound by funding keeping us from getting better. I am not implying that we are superior, far from. If we were all perfect, we'd all be walking on water. Hind sight is 20-20. Yes, they may have made a mistake, who knows why. Whats the fix? Who knows. Yes, there are ALWAYS better solutions. We and everyone have to constantly change and adapt to times as they change. I'm not asking you to accept it. I'm just asking you to try and understand both sides, not agree, just see it from our perspective a little. I certainly hope for more training, better ideas, and definitely in favor of keeping my a$$ from getting shot.

    Did you hear about the guy that said to the police officer, "Hey, I pay your salary!" The police officer flips him a quarter and says "Here's a refund."

    Living Life as a K-9 Officer / EagleWolf Forum

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    warpig883
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 360
    (9/1/01 10:07:07 pm)
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    Robert, I hear you saying you (we) don't know all the facts but it is a shame that an officer got killed. What about the inidividual they were attacking. Why aren't you standing up for him? If we truly don't know the facts maybe the cops were dirty and the suspect was innocenet of all wrongdoing. You blindly sticking up for the JBT is exactly the sort of mentality that everyone here is talking about. If you were being partial you would be sticking up for both of them. It is a shame and ANYONE got killed. Both lives were probably wasted because of the "cops are better than everyone else mentality" That mentality makes me sick and is the EXACT reason I have no respect for any of my local or federal law enforcement.
    The law enforcement forces all over the country need to know We The People are the reason they exist, we pay their paychecks and they need to start doing what we want. This problem is rampant from the local level to the federal level. I cannot stress enough the people are where it all starts and ends, we are the important ones.
    As far as walking in your shoes or the shoes of any LEO, I never have and do not want to. But as a veteran I do believe I have an idea of what you meant.

    I wish Randy Weaver was a member here to give us his views on the topic.
    Sorry about going off on a tangent Just my .02

    Edited by: warpig883 at: 9/1/01 11:08:54 pm

    LIKTOSHOOT
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 2111
    (9/1/01 10:21:23 pm)
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    SOILED RED GARTERS RULE!!!!! specialy ifin there tight, snap!
    "am not" R2

    warpig883
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 363
    (9/1/01 10:25:15 pm)
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    OUCH, dangit LTS not so hard. I respond better to soft love snaps.

    LIKTOSHOOT
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 2112
    (9/1/01 10:27:01 pm)
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    You know you likes it......
    "am not" R2

    hammer4nc
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 53
    (9/1/01 10:32:50 pm)
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    Mr. Harden,

    I've read a lot of discussions in other forums re: various police raids gone bad. The LEO's often express, as you have, until we've "walked your mile", civilians just can't understand.

    You might reconsider this attitude, as there might just be a few of us (law abiding and respecting) buck-tooths around who are really trying to understand these events (as you are) through the lens of the media reports. We are willing to make allowance for the fact that even the most routine warrant or traffic stop can suddenly go south...and someone doesn't go home that day.

    Just as the cop-bashing attitude, on one extreme, does little to further understanding, so too, does the "circle the wagons" espirit de cops attitude, on the other extreme, seems all too willing to cover up not only accidental screw-ups, but cases of institutional corruption as well.

    Between those two extremes, LEO's and civilians of good faith have plenty of common ground for discussion. While we are friends and neighbors of local deputies, some raise an eyebrow (and justifiably so) at the tactics AND track record being layed down by the BATF, to use one example. When one of these raids goes down, and we get multiple accounts of the facts, direct from agency spokesmen (not just media spin, which I discount) within a 24 hour period, what conclusion would you have us draw? Sometimes these CYA efforts are laughable.

    In conclusion, more folks than you might expect, react as I did, the officer who took a bullet in this case could have been our local leo/friend and neighbor. Still, legitimate concerns exist...i.e., increased militarization of the police; increased reliance on dynamic entry techniques; agendas of federal agencies, and their relationship with local leo's...

    You could illuminate the discussion with your expertise, maybe even educate a couple RR wanna's. Lets avoid the cop-bashing/CYA repartee, and get to the real issues.


    warpig883
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 365
    (9/1/01 10:37:35 pm)
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    Well said hammer.


    AGunguy
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 185
    (9/1/01 10:41:56 pm)
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    Why can't some folks in the law profession think like we do, you know, believers of the US Constitution. Every man, woman and child born in this nation has writen in blood rights. A lot of folks died getting us those rights. If we want to keep those rights they have to be respected and upheld by every one of us citizens wether we be cops or civilians. Less than that we join with tyrrants and do their bidding. Then we only have the right to remain silent and do what the tyrrants wants us to do.

    I don't see any difference in the government or the mafia. The people running those businesses are in it for the power and the profit. What a racket. And the JBTs are the mobs enforcers.

    Hey Leo, go over and whack that guy at Santa Cllarita, and take some of the family with youse. (LA Sheriff Dept)

    Gunguy




    Robert Harden
    Member
    Posts: 34
    (9/1/01 10:57:45 pm)
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    war.....I didnt take his side for the same reason you don't take our side. We tend to favor birds of a feather. I don't hear you saying, "...but the raid intentions were good, but just went bad" routine, you instinctively favor that of the citizen. And thats okay. Just as long as you let me do the same. If it was unjust and I knew so for fact, I would be the first to take the citizens side. But until I can get all the facts I'll tend to favor my side, which I believe is a natural response.

    hammer, very educated response. I don't work for a large agency, I work for an agency that has a good honest crew that tries to get the job done right. Nor would I want to work for the agency that acts in such a manner. Who knows why they do what they do, I wish I could answer you in the same educated manner in which you made your reply, but I can not. I am not blind to the way in which some agency's take action. Sometimes I think, "that was the dumbest thing I ever saw." or, "Why in the world......" I'm not there, I dont' know why, what prompts them to make such a response or make a dynamic entry. I am on the entry team here, and am state certified both individually and as a team member. Believe me when I say, that givin the facts as these: barricaded and weapons, I'd just assume sit outside. But maybe he also had a sniper weapon in there as well, and could pull a rampage fest. Making an entry seem more urgent. (Not saying that was the case, just an example of a circumstance we may not be privy too) Facts, I wish I knew them all but certainly do not. I would not cover for an officer that committed a crime, nor would I cover for a mistake made that cost lives. That does happen, I will not contest that. Just not here. The real question is here, is how can we obtain peace and order? We used to not have metal detectors at school, but now kids are have range practice amongst friends. But stop and pat down a kid, and the parents go ballistic because they're just kids. Times change, and maybe the LEO agencies are trying to adapt, maybe in the wrong ways maybe not. At one time, officers made entry on hostage situations with a pistol. Suspects had rifles and autos. We get autos, and people say, "Oh my, is that necessary?". We get shot officers shot and killed pulling up in a squad car. We get an armored vehicle, for a safer approach and people say, "Oh my, is that necessary?". I dont know what the M60 is for. Maybe its not loaded. But I can promise you that there is not one LEO wanting to shoot thru 3 blocks and kill a family with it. Did I answer a question here, not sure. I got to go my girlfriend thinks I'm spending too much time with you guys. lol.

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    AGunguy
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 186
    (9/2/01 7:03:22 am)
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    Most honest citizens are on the US Constitution's side, there is no other side to be on...period!

    The 'it's them against us mentallity' is way out of line in todays society, the 'them' being the honest citizens and the 'us' being the Leos.

    In the cases where the Constitutional rights are thwarted it is an agency working outside of the US law, thus, creating its own rules and guidelines as long as they can get away with it.

    Is there any difference between Waco and Santa Clarita, yes, they didn't take as long to burn it down.

    Gunguy

    Edited by: AGunguy at: 9/2/01 8:08:13 am

    the real fredneck
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 286
    (9/2/01 8:10:38 am)
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    History buffs essay question (50 points)
    Anyone care to compare and contrast the concept of interagency cooperation with the strange case of Ernst Rohm?

    AGunguy
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 188
    (9/2/01 11:03:41 am)
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    I loved it when Rohm (behind bars) was about to be liquidated by the SS troopers with machineguns.
    But mein Fuerher, I am loyal Nazi party member...ratta tat tat...ugh! Heil Hitler....plop.

    Just a poor old soldier doing his duty following orders.

    They didn't have witness protection programs in those days.

    Gunguy

    Edited by: AGunguy at: 9/2/01 12:04:59 pm

    Robert Harden
    Member
    Posts: 41
    (9/2/01 12:40:57 pm)
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    Ummm no...wait, sure......no nevermind. Can I just look off someone else's paper?

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    kdubaz
    Moderator
    Posts: 590
    (9/2/01 1:15:30 pm)
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    We have a great advantage here - hindsight!

    Common sense would say if you suspect a person to have an arsenal in his house, you would separate that individual from his weapons source prior to takedown. This would take place with the least danger to the arresting officers, the perp and the public.

    We all know the desire of these agencies (local, state, federal) to gain maximum publicity and exposure for their actions, hence the pic's of drug raid results, parading perp's in front of tv cameras, etc. Departmental heads are like politicans, the more their mugs are shown in the media being firm chinned and authoritive the more their egos are stroked and public image built. Ever notice all the bodies always standing behind the speaker at such events? Wonder what their function is, in regards to the proclimation being made?

    The person that burned in the home, according to published reports, wasn't the most sterling of people. He probably needed taken in and conversed with (attorney present) while a LEGAL search warrant was obtained for property searching. Someone parading around as a LEO and waving firearms around needs to be removed from public exposure. Now, this is all I know from published reports - who knows what the real truth is?

    Unless there was a bonafide breaking of the governing laws, the enforcement agencies can't just act on heresay and rumor. Did the person actually fracture any such laws? What justification(s) were given to obtain the arrest and search warrants? How was the planning conducted by the cooperating agencies and what safety parameters were considered. What contingency plans were formulated? Why the massive confrontation at the residence?

    I now notice a massive CYA is in progress to paint the perp with a huge black coated brush. This will be whitewashed just like all the other bumblings of the agencies involved. Here is a splendid opportunity for John Ashcroft to get involved to truely get to the bottom of the incident and let blame fall where it may - who knows, maybe the enforcement agencies will come out exonorated and prove a dangerous mental case has been removed from society with the cost being just one LEO's life, tragic as that is, instead of several or many.
    Keep below the ridgeline!

    Robert Harden
    Member
    Posts: 46
    (9/2/01 1:51:48 pm)
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    That was EXACTLY what I was thinking (looking at kdub's paper).

    These issues need to stop, vote Robert Harden at the next presidential election.

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    the real fredneck
    V.I.P. Member
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    (9/2/01 8:10:41 pm)
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    Let us not forget the whitewash that occured in MO when Asscroft was AG for the state there was a prison riot that occured in '83 the "authorities" overrreacted (per usual) one of their members was killed, Asscroft got together with the prison officials so the bastards all swore to the same set of lies and he became the next "law & order" govenor and the rest as they say is history, funny thing the majority of inmate lawsuits filed as a result of that incident went the distance but the state has unlimited lawyer resources so they can appeal forever the other funny thing the lying corrupt individuals involved all got promotions and wouldn't be suprised if several were current staff flunkies for the illustrious conservative cocksucker

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1516
    (9/2/01 8:33:51 pm)
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    One of my first cases of "JBTs" at the ATF I remember was as a teenager right after GCA '68 was passed....I lived in New York State at the time, and it happened there.

    Neighbors claim a guy in an apartment across the hall has an "arsenal" of "Unlicensed Handguns..."

    ATF uses "Dynamic Entry..." (Neat Legalese PC name for a 3rd Century Battering Ram, isn't it?)... without even KNOCKING first... (I wonder if they use a Bradley, is it called "Tracked Dynamic Entry?" How about calling it what it is, not playing coy or Democrat? You crash doors. Period.)

    LAW ABIDING Citizen responds to the intrusion by coming out of his bedroom with his (legal) cap and ball revolver, and gets blown away by the agents...

    His crime? Being neighbors to "helpful" people that have no clue what kind of guns a Civil War reenactor owns...all he owned was BP....

    THAT was the first of many that leads us up to Waco and Ruby Ridge...and to where else?

    Robert, you would be SURPRISED how many of is arguing with you here would be the FIRST to support our local PD or Sheriff if the chips were down. We just happen to think the Constitution is more important, when it comes to "protecting society."

    The problem is, and it was stated by someone else somewhere else, cops generally associate after a while only with other cops, victims and perps.

    Like a friend of mine who worked it said, the only thing worse than being a cop is Corrections...after a while, the only thing that is different from the officer and the prisoners is that the officer gets to go home after 8 hours...

    Well, I didn't win the Powerball, so I still collect Russian Crap and variants thereof. ( And am darn happy I can!)

    the real fredneck
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 288
    (9/2/01 8:40:09 pm)
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    Yeah Polish
    It's just another segment in the continuing game of cops and assholes if you ain't got a badge wanna guess which team you have to be on?

    Robert Harden
    Member
    Posts: 50
    (9/2/01 8:54:28 pm)
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    Whew.....glad I'm a cop.

    I'm not being disrespectful with you guys, so please don't get me wrong. I have to be serious all the time, so off duty I like to have a little fun too.

    I agree that there are bad grapes, but not all of us are. Some of us do try to help the joe citizen as much as they can.

    But sometimes, as I have had happen to me, I tried to offer some lady a ride home late one night. She had been drinking, so I did give her a breath test, (she blew high enough for a PI but I didnt take her to jail, trying to be nice), anyway she said she lived just a block or two, so I left her be. The next day an article made the paper, about how a cop tried to "pick her up, and threatened to take her to jail.....blah blah blah, you get the picture. I ended up in the Chief's office, explaining how I tired to be nice. So do you see the flip side? Now when I see someone walking, and they have been drinking, do you not think I feel, being burned once, that I should just run them downtown? If I did, you guys are likely to call me a glory hound, or a hard a**. Never thinking for a second that it wasnt always that way. Now imagine an even greater screw job a citizen might have pulled. There is a flip side, adn it goes both ways.

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    warpig883
    V.I.P. Member
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    (9/2/01 9:10:03 pm)
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    You are right, it does go both ways. I am not trying to be anti-cop but when 99% of LEO's that I have dealt with have been liars or ***holes it tends to affect my behavior in dealing with cops. I know there are good ones and it only takes one bad apple to destroy the image of ten good ones.

    It would seem you are one of the good ones. I think we can all get along here even if we do disagree. If I get to exited and start insulting anyone in my posts feel free to give me a snap on the garter.

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1518
    (9/2/01 9:46:39 pm)
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    Robert, let me try it one more time, you don't seem to be getting what I am trying to say....

    Even in your example, you exhibit "Us versus Them."

    MANY other professions have JUST as much at stake with decisions made, potentials for lawsuits, or worse, petentials for bodily injury, or worse, potential for harassment, sexual or otherwise, potential for EEOC complaints, and yes, potential of violence in the workplace.

    Cops do NOT have a monopoly on it, no matter what they believe.

    You have no idea what I do for a living, and yet since I am not a "cop" you are already taking an adversarial position to what I say.

    In many resects, I agree with you.

    But, part of my job is now, and most of my job for more than 20 years, was "Loss Prevention." I investigate, interrogate, charge, and in many cases, I have more authority than a cop, at least, more leeway from Contitutional protections since I do not represent "the State." BUT, my job is TOUGHER in many ways, I'll wager. A cop has to just make a "good arrest." For private, you'd BETTER nail it to "Beyond a shadow..." because try suing the City. It's a helluva lot easier to sue a retail company...And what do you think would happen to me personally, or professionally, if I should interrogate a female without a female witness, or even worse, when I investigate sexual harassment claims and take some of those "detailed" statements from a witness, I'm entering the lawsuit potentially as a PARTY at that time from BOTH sides...and can get sued at the same time by BOTH, as WELL as get fined by the Feds if my actions aren't correct..."too quick on the trigger" I get sued, "too slow to react," I get sued...

    Do I have to go to work every day with the possibility I may face a gun in the next 5 minutes like a cop? No. That IS a big difference, for which I give them alot of respect, especially for what they get paid.

    But do you want me to reciprocate the attitude? It would be easy for me to say that a Cop couldn't handle my job...most can't make the transition to private Loss Prevention successfully for that very reason..."Us vs. Them" doesn't translate very well when the "them" are paying customers or fellow employees...

    But then that would be just as bad...and serve no purpose.

    EVERYBODY can say something similar...there's a truckdriver that's always calling a radio station I listen to that claims the most important and thankless and difficult and dangerous job in the world is his! Yes everything we own or eat came on a truck, Yes they face accidents, and death on the road, and deadlines, and weather,etc, etc. He ends up sounding STUPID every time, you'd laugh at him too. I'm sure you've heard Teachers say similar things. And while I would HATE to face the increased risk of death EVERY day like you do, I would also hate to be a deep coal miner, or a high rise iron worker, or paint 1000 foot transmitters, or work on an Great Lakes Ore Boat, either...

    The point is, it's a JOB. It's a personal career choice, hopefully you strive to be the best you can be, and take pride in it, BUT...your job is NO better or worse, more uplifting, or rewarding, or in it's own way, more dificult than LOTS of others, within MOST parameters. Neither is mine! The sooner we all realize this little truism, the better off we would be...

    THAT is what I am trying to say...don't think I am being personal, or attacking LEOs in any way, it's the ATTITUDE that MANY assume with the badge that clouds the issue, and many more have vestiges of it than you think, YOU even exhibit it...

    Someday you will retire. Someday I may be the one interviewing you for your second career...think about it.

    Well, I didn't win the Powerball, so I still collect Russian Crap and variants thereof. ( And am darn happy I can!)

    Edited by: polishshooter at: 9/2/01 11:02:09 pm

    Robert Harden
    Member
    Posts: 51
    (9/2/01 10:16:17 pm)
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    Pay me more now, and you can set up an interview. Can you afford 8 bucks an hour? hehe. I made my choice, you're right. And I don't regret one second, nor will I ever. I will always have some degree of law officer running thru me, whether its part-time or reserve. Until I'm rich, then screw it. lol. If I implied that I thought I had the toughest job or hardest, I did not mean to. I certainly do not have the toughest. Dangerous? I don't know, maybe. But not toughest. I couldn't do the work that some do, and in most cases would not consider it. So I am always thankful for my job, there are perks, but also down sides. i.e working holidays, graveyard shift, weekends, and less pay then other careers, but it was my choice, and I'll deal with that choice as my decision, and whenever it gets to be too much I'll get one of my friends here to help me get another line of work.

    I did loss prevention for a while, I found it boring, but I did the walk around part, and it wasn't a busy store. If it's busy it's kind of fun. I did get tired of being on my feet for long periods tho.....not for me.

    It is too bad we got some bad apples, and it does ruin it for the rest of us. Just don't be so quick to think we're all pricks till we prove otherwise. Gotta go, graveyard, starting tonight for 4 months.


    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1520
    (9/2/01 10:41:02 pm)
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    Here's hoping for some QUIET nights for you...by the way, make a few extra trips past my house willya? Had some stuff stolen around the neighbohood recently...
    Well, I didn't win the Powerball, so I still collect Russian Crap and variants thereof. ( And am darn happy I can!)

    Robert Harden
    Member
    Posts: 52
    (9/3/01 5:54:10 am)
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    Them bastards. I told them to leave your house alone.

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    zombiedawg
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 55
    (9/3/01 11:24:01 am)
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    A month or two ago in Lubbock, Texas ( PRETTY SMALL TOWN TO HAVE A SWAT TEAM) the SWAT receives reports of a "stockpile of weapons". They surround the guys house, one thing leads to another and the homeowner catches 2 rounds while a SWAT member catches 1 to the head. This is after some 300+ rounds are fired. All by officers as the menacing "stockpile" consisted of unfiring antique weapons. The SWAT member was shot by his own guys, with no return fire being delivered. The homeowner lived and was held for a week until they determined that the officer was hit by "friendly fire". Not much else as this story was kept very tight-lipped.
    I guess they don't want the public to know how careless the "trained" pros are when it comes to firing their weapons also. 300 or so rounds and only 3 hits!! What a waste of ammo!!
    RANGE ME

    AGunguy
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 198
    (9/3/01 11:42:05 am)
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    Sounds like due process at its finest...sigh!

    GG

    LIKTOSHOOT
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 2128
    (9/3/01 11:52:41 am)
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    As the news trickles out, it is not looking good. Sheriff may have been hit by friendly fire, and they also fired on two different houses besides the bad guys house......once again!

    So far the "stockpile" consist of:

    Ak47...(1)
    Ar15...(1)
    .380 semi-auto pistol...(1)

    Large volume??????? Next time try using that M-60 and just shoot the whole FREAKIN neighborhood down. I think the guns are in the wrong hands............................
    "am not" R2

    Edited by: LIKTOSHOOT at: 9/3/01 1:57:41 pm

    warpig883
    V.I.P. Member
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    (9/3/01 12:06:02 pm)
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    It will be interesting to see what happens here. I can venture a guess. But i am truly going to try to be openminded on this one and not place blame on anyone until the facts are out. That leaves me to trusting what the media says. a

    bondai
    Moderator
    Posts: 453
    (9/3/01 12:17:11 pm)
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    We will never see all the facts...It will get covered up and swept under the carpet just like every other assault on the constitution..







    kdubaz
    Moderator
    Posts: 599
    (9/3/01 1:10:22 pm)
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    Very unfortunately, I'll have to reluctantly agree with you, Bondai -

    If the homeowner was truely a bad guy and had a real arsenal, as purported, it would be in the news constantly for the next few days. As it begins to look like a bungled bust, it will get very quiet.
    Keep below the ridgeline!

    Robert Harden
    Member
    Posts: 53
    (9/3/01 2:53:59 pm)
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    I can't remember what they say the % of accuarcy is under fire?? Is it reduced by 50%?

    It was probably a jacked up job. Of course as you guys says, No Surprise. I'd be curious to know what the % rate is for that department? How many search warrants were successful, and how many got jacked up? I would venture to say the % rate would be in favor of the successful. But successful is boring, and rarely makes the news headlines. Death, mayhem, corruption, politics......thats what makes the news the most.



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    LIKTOSHOOT
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 2130
    (9/3/01 3:04:41 pm)
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    No actually this is done just for the hype, just incase it`s a good raid.....that`s why the press was there.....BIG STOCK PILE!!!! BIG BAD GUY!!!! BIG PRESS TIME!!!! BIG HERO`S SAVING US!!!!

    " NO NEWS, IS GOOD NEWS"
    "am not" R2

    Robert Harden
    Member
    Posts: 58
    (9/3/01 3:24:48 pm)
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    I never cared for the press, I avoid em. They'll just get in my way. lol. Or catch me on tape beating some poor innocent civilian.

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    Xracer
    Moderator
    Posts: 865
    (9/3/01 4:19:38 pm)
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    Back to the original subject....Robert made an important point that seemed to be missed by all.

    The alternative to taking the "Bad Guy" in his home is taking him outside the home.....more than likely in a public area of some sort. Now we've got to assume the BG is armed. You have no containment, probably innocent civilians around....and you're likely to have bullets flying in an uncontrolled environment. Robert's Walmart parking lot scenario is a good one. If he's in his car, he might get away.....if he's outside his car, he may be able to hi-jack one or take a civilian as hostage, or make it into a store or home and take hostages.....too many "ifs". Too little control.

    Now if you take him in his home, you've got containment. Granted, you've got a barricaded BG, but you can evacuate the civilians so you don't have to worry about public safety. At least you have static situation where you can work and plan, rather than a dynamic one where all you can do is react.

    Maybe you can talk him out....maybe you can wait him out. Worst case, maybe you've gotta go in and get him, but at least you have a controlled situation.

    Now, I don't know the entire scenario that played out there......none of us do. We have only the media reports, and I think we all know how accurate the media is.

    I think many of us are automatically blaming law enforcement on this one instead of waiting until the whole story comes out.

    AGunguy
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 202
    (9/3/01 4:27:49 pm)
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    Well lets recap what we do know, bad guy gets wounded, cop gets shot by cops and is deader than Al Gores chances of being president...what else do we need to know about this operation.

    Maybe the bad guy came out to the cop that got shot to surrender and they both got plugged.

    Just guessen???

    Gunguy

    bondai
    Moderator
    Posts: 458
    (9/3/01 4:35:15 pm)
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    Lets try and remember that this happened in Kalifornia, one of several socialist run states.. If people cannot see the direction this is headed then they are totally blind or they just don't want to hear the truth.

    Lets speculate for a moment. Lets say that the guy in the house was a total scumbag. Lets say that he was a convicted felon, lets also say that he had a huge "STOCKPILE" of weapons, lets say 100...no lets give the liberals a break..lets say 50. By the way all you ATF agents and LEO's out there..50 weapons is not alot for a collector. Anyway lets say that 1/2 of those weapons were class III, never mind, for the liberals again lets say there were 2 class III weapons in the home.Personally I don't believe there were any, but since the JBT's burned the house down the evidence has been contaminated I guess we will never know, unless you count the evidence that was planted. You notice how this always seems to happen when the ATF is involved??????

    Now I am not a LEO, but I am a 20 year veteran of the pre-Klinton military. Correct me if I am wrong but I think that if we have learned anything from history it is that a frontal assault is a bad idea and should be avoided at all costs, unless there is absolutely no other option at hand.

    This is what I see. Once again the ATF exchanged brute force for common sense. Once again local law enforcement was talked into going along with the plan, no matter how poor the plan was.Once again local LEO's are going to be left holding the bag when "big brother goes home". Once again a LEO is killed for no reason.Once again a woman is left without a husband and children without a father, and for what???

    I'll tell you why. So some socialist bastard in Kalifornia can look good and buy votes."See, I am protecting you from the bad guys.I told you that guns were evil..We need more gun control laws to prevent this kind of thing...I am sure that Diane Feinstein and her Cronies are drafting legislation as we speak.

    Local LEO's need to stop being sacrificial goats for big brother. If the ATF want to proceed with Neo-Nazi raids on American citizens, then let them stand up and get their asses shot off. Don't send our friends and neighbors who just happen to be LEO's in to do you dirty work. It hasn't happened yet but it will. The ATF is going to launch a raid on the wrong group of people and it is going to turn into a blood bath, for both sides. Folks are getting tired of being pushed around and the sooner the Government realizes that the better.


    LIKTOSHOOT
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 2134
    (9/3/01 4:43:02 pm)
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    X, I believe I addressed the


    LIKTOSHOOT
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 2172
    (9/5/01 4:54:52 pm)
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    Doc, it`s been a while....but seems to me no one was shot except the robbers....or is my memory going to waste. I really don`t remember.
    "am not" R2

    AGunguy
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 204
    (9/3/01 5:04:54 pm)
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    Keeripes a mighty, I thought we was discussen the Texas incident. But now its back to the Commiefornia incident. Hard to keep up when yer old and confused. Sorry.

    Good point about there's going to a blood bath one of these days, there indeed will be one. But the feds are hoping that is what's going to occur. Don't any of you realize they've got hardware stashed all across the nation to take care of civil unrest, they've got heavy armour, they've got specail aircraft both choppers and fixed wing. And if it gets too out of hand they can bring in the Army for military lock down...martial law will be in effect. Think about it...they have.

    Gunguy

    Edited by: AGunguy at: 9/3/01 6:12:50 pm

    Robert Harden
    Member
    Posts: 61
    (9/3/01 8:42:21 pm)
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    Have you guys seen "Seige" with Bruce Willis and Denzel Washington? Pretty good movie.

    I say we go find the nearest ATF agent and whip his a**! Whatta ya say guys come on, let's go..... Get us some torches, shovels, pitchforks, and maybe some of those class III weapons, and give it a go.......YEA, COME ON!! ummmm, who's got point? I'll cover the back.

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    AGunguy
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 207
    (9/3/01 9:19:15 pm)
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    You hold 'em, I'll kick 'em in the hangies. Dirty fritzafrats, grrrrr.

    GG

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1525
    (9/3/01 9:40:50 pm)
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    You know, I always thought I had a decent solution for this whole "Gun Control" controversy, that would keep EVERYONE happy, and probably be supported by everyone EXCEPT the Libs who don't care about anything but total disarmament.

    First, we disarm ALL the ATF Agents, and turn them into AUDITORS.
    Second, all our new ATF auditors start visiting dealers full time, just to audit 4473s...

    The ONLY time a dealer gets sanctioned is if the 4473 is fudged by the DEALER, or not filled out properly.

    The MAIN thrust of the audit, is to find buyers who lied...do a random sample size, and CHECK every section against Federal, State, and local records, AND if possible, drug and alcohol "programs," and state mental hospitals.

    Anybody that LIED on ANY questions, file charges and throw the book at 'em, raid 'em, lock them up!

    BTW,If they need a "raid" let them turn it ALL over to the locals, who will investigate, determine if any STATE OR LOCAL laws are violated, then conduct whatever raid or search is warranted WITHIN their own local judicial idiosynchrasies. The locals would probably NOT face as concerted a backlash anyway, the people probably KNOW them. If a Federal law is violated, isn't that why we have the FBI? WHY do we need EVERY Federal Agency from the Treasury to the Postal Service have their own SWAT team???

    And publicize it. Go after the ones who break the law at that point, NOT law abiders, OR dealers...

    This way, we wouldn't even need NICS, or really anything else.

    As it is, the 4473 is a joke...I know YOU and I take it seriously, but a criminal? But nobody checks, unless as a way to nail a DEALER.

    But this would be TOO simple wouldn't it? And it just might WORK, which is the LAST thing Schumer, Kennedy, or Feinstein want...
    Well, I didn't win the Powerball, so I still collect Russian Crap and variants thereof. ( And am darn happy I can!)

    rayra
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 64
    (9/4/01 6:17:42 pm)
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    ezSupporter
    Re: Santa Clarita ATF Bungle / House Burning
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    Well, coming back to this a little late, out of town enjoying the holiday weekend.
    As I said in the opening post, this was a local event for me, as I live in Santa Clarita.

    I'll be catching up on the published facts this week, and will report back with any follow-up info, as this event fades from the national news.

    Just so everyone is clear where I stand - I'll come right out and say the following - my politics are middle-of-the-road. I served seven years with the Marines (out due to blown knee). I am a firm supporter of the Constitution, Personal Responsibility, and Vote every opportunity I get.
    Two of my best friends are LEOs, one a LASD Deputy, one with Burbank PD.
    At 37 yrs of age, and owning firearms for practically all of that, I have to say I'm dismayed and disgusted with the way that the majority of gun-owners (which happen to be a very significant portion of the population of this country) are viewed / dismissed / actively demonized by the media and the uninformed.

    I'm curious to find out what if any training standards the ATF has. Time and again we are hearing of such bungled events. It is time for a public / Congressional review of their operations and guidelines. They need to be peeled like an onion, put under a microscope.

    As for Santa Clarita -
    No one should have died in this event. Not the Deputy Sheriff, OR the target of the investigation.
    It was the mis-application of force that created this tradegy.

    It is still my thought / position that this individual could have been detained / controlled / arrested in a more surreptitious, less public-endangering manner.
    It is my understanding that at the morning of these events, this felon was unaware of the investigation, and was going about his 'normal' routine (meaning he wasn't barricaded / hiding in his home). He took his 'police' dog on evening walks in his neighborhood.
    Pick a person some day as you approach a market, or a theater. Without being obvious or threatening in any way, see how easy it is to sidle up next to, or pass them by within arm's length.
    Surely some form of procedural review / revised training syllabus can be discussed and brought into being, and some manner of reforms can be foisted upon the BATF and any other wayward agencies, that might give the average person a chance to survive a 'dynamic' encounter with these paramilitary / SWAT / black-clad Jack Booted Thugs. Maybe even prevent such an event from taking place AT ALL.
    Am I calling all such personnel / agencies thugs? By no means.
    But time and again, it seems to be amateur-hour with Tactical Vests and MP5s
    Armchair quarterbacking? You bet - it's called 'civilian review' - something every level of Federal and State Government and every law-enforcement agency is (and should be) subject to.
    Training and tactics needs to be reviewed and vastly improved.
    We've spent enough collective million$ on Kevlar and subguns and ARMORED CARS. It's time we start focusing / expending energy on tactics of (NOT) employing it!

    Robert Harden - as a LEO, you're doing a job I wouldn't want. Do it well. See that those around you do it well. But don't give me/us that line of crap about 'walking a mile in your shoes'. I have life-experience, too. I have intelligence. I have (massive) access to information (God Bless America - and the Internet, too!).
    Characterizations or assertions about Ruby Ridge, militia, buck-teeth, et al have absolutely nothing to do with with the Santa Clarita operation (or others like it).

    Hell, I have a few weapons, and well-meaning neighbors - you can bet your last cent that I'm a little concerned about how my 'protectors' operate.

    The rest of this is my personal direct observations, while sitting at home, watching the live feed on the TV. Shortly after the upstairs of the home caught fire, I took my wife to a medical appt at a facility very near the scene, where we later saw several of the helicopters (LAFD / LASD) in the area, the LAPD armored scout car being flat-bedded in, and were briefly caught behind the roadblocks.

    This event occurred in an upscale neighborhood in the northern suburban fringes of the 10-million-person+ sprawl that is Greater Los Angeles.
    This region is covered by dozens of airborne news and traffic-coverage vehicles, at all times.
    As such, this event was televised live, from just a very few minutes after "shots fired!" went out over the radios.
    I watched this coverage, from shortly after its onset.
    It was muddled. It was confused. It was chock-full of inane news-anchor banter. Excepting the announcement of the Deputy's death, and a few other news conferences, that house was under direct aerial observation for the few hours' duration of the event.
    I wish to God I had thought to put a tape in the VCR.
    News that evening reported that ATF & LASD personnel had been 'infiltrating' the neighborhood for almost 3 hours, before the 'good guys' telephoned Beck, and asked him to step outside.
    There was a report on the television news, while the back upstairs of the house was first burning, a field reporter with a female across-the-street-neighbor - this woman stated that the officers went to the front door, knocked / called for Beck to come to the door, and to come outside, as they had been told about a 'viscious dog'. Beck refused the officers entry, stating that 'he was afraid they would hurt his dog', and slammed the door shut. Officers briefly attempted to force the door (me- apparently they were unprepared to breach it). They almost immediately began to attempt to force entry through an adjacent window. It was at this point that gunfire was exchanged / the deputy was hit.
    At this point, the LEOs pulled back, and an attempt to form some sort of perimeter took place. The law enforcement vehicles were left in a nice row in front of the house.
    It was shortly after this that an LAFD Huey Helicopter brought in / dropped several Sheriff's Tactical team members.
    This team was placed in an apparently commandeered full-size white pickup, and driven around / sprinkled about the area. These are apparently the team that began the household evacuations shortly afterward.

    Shortly after the back upper portion of the house was engulfed, LAFD personel began hosing water onto the two next-door houses, to keep them soaked and prevent their catching fire. This effort was very successful, as a small lime-green inflatable wading pool on the side of neighbor's house, immediately adjacent to the one burning never suffered any heat damage / failure.

    More to follow, as I get caught up, and the now 'spun' news filters out of this farce.

    And that's the news from the '3rd Safest City in the U.S.' -

    Rich


    Xracer
    Moderator
    Posts: 874
    (9/4/01 6:38:34 pm)
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    Thanks for the update......keep it coming. It's no longer on the TV news here in the Midwest.

    Robert Harden
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 67
    (9/4/01 11:27:00 pm)
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    Hey Rayra. Let me restate a comment I made earlier in response to "walk our mile".

    "Walk our mile can be implied many ways. Walk our mile-see how we don't always get the training we need. Walk our mile-See how we are out gunned at times, a pistol vs. and automatic. Walk our mile-So much law, its difficult to learn it all. Walk our mile-We are human too. Walk our mile-I hate being turned down for a school I desperately wanted to attend. Walk our mile-Sometimes we are bound by funding keeping us from getting better. I am not implying that we are superior, far from. If we were all perfect, we'd all be walking on water."

    I agree and respect your opinion regarding accountability. Everyone should be held accountable for their actions. And if the ones demanding accountability do so appropiately, it can be a learning and educational experience for everyone. Cop bashing and government slamming will not solve the problems of law and order. (not pointing fingeres here) But gone about in the correct manner, a law enforcement agency can grow and improve by being held accountable by the public. Reviewing training standards is one of the best comments I have heard yet. But, lets talk about training. The old saying " The more you train in peacetime, the less you bleed in war." I can guarentee that there is not an LEO out there that does not wish and request for more training. I'd train at every opportunity given the chance. It all comes to training, when in a stressful situation, your revert to your training. You react as you have been trained. Training, training, training. But LEO's can barely get a decent paycheck, let alone a department getting a decent budget for training, equipment, and ammunition. So maybe we can shift the blame from the LEO's to the government, maybe from the government right back to you and the public. Everytime we request a pay increase or budget increase, it gets slashed. "Make due with what you got." Is a common phrase. We are talking about alot more here than just training records. Give us more training, and we'll give you more quality, effective law enforcement. Next time the tax bill is proposed for LEO's and budgets, try speaking of it favorably. Of course that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.



    Living Life as a K-9 Officer / EagleWolf Forum

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    rayra
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 66
    (9/5/01 12:42:39 am)
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    ezSupporter
    Re: Santa Clarita ATF Bungle / House Burning
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    not attacking you here, directly, and your comments about training are on-target, but as you've waved the LEO flag, let me point out something that is directly under the control of and the responsibility of the individual LEO - an individual's mindset and attititudes.

    Many people are aware of or have experienced LEOs with a poor attitude toward the general public - some of the comments / commentators in this very thread touch on the matter - an attitude that there are three types of people: 'Us'-the LEOs; 'Perps'-all crooks of all grades; and 'SHEEP'-the clueless stupid flock that needs tending.

    This dismissive, disrespectful attitude towards the general populace, which seems prevalent in my opinion in major cities, is what fosters or lays the groundwork for oppressive and harmful policies and procedures.

    This harmful mindset, when carried up into higher ranks, or fostered within a large law-enforcement organization has an even wider (potentially harmful) impact when these upper ranks are the ones setting policies and determining where those oh-so-limited training dollars are spent.

    To echo my earlier comments, we could open the training $$ floodgates, but if it goes for more ballistic helmets, and 'dynamic entry teams' for every agency under the sun, we'll keep having unfortunate occurrences of 'shit happens'.

    It will take a bottom-to-top review of strategies, policies & procedures to have a chance at fixing things, but as there is very little political capital in doing so, none of our politicians is liable to do so. The People are left to frustration and anger, and increasing distance from the very governmental agencies that are supposed to be there for their benefit.

    Those who are aware, informed, calm enough, old enough or well-read enough (or any combination of these) to see the enormity of the situation will retreat from it.
    Those energetic or young or angry enough, will rant at it.
    Those far enough off-center will talk of a new Revolution.

    None of these things will fix the situation.

    I have no idea what will, short of an event of such enormous monstrosity, and a slow news week, to allow for the country, the weekend news talking heads, and every other pundit to form a collective opinion that Something Must Be Done.
    Then it will get lost in Committee.

    This, I feel, is why so many 'average' gun owners / Constitutional Rights advocates don't participate in a useful fashion, as nothing is ever seen to come from it.

    Rich

    Robert Harden
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 70
    (9/5/01 1:33:04 am)
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    Good points ray. Attitude and mindset is the key to survival and a long happy life.

    I know you were not attacking me personally, and I can see your frustration. Only thing that I can say and or encourage is to keep trying, get involved, and patience. You may already be doing that very thing.

    But in the meantime, just take into consideration, that there are two sides to every complaint, and sometimes LEO's are also every bit as frsutrated as you are. I want to attend training often, and hear, "Not enough money in the training budget, maybe after the first of the year." I get frustrated too.

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    zombiedawg
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 56
    (9/5/01 6:58:23 am)
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    I heard that the deputy was not even entering the window like originally reported. He was 1/2 a block away crouched down behind his vehicle when he was shot in the face.
    Makes you wonder how far this could be blown out of proportion.

    rayra
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 69
    (9/5/01 1:00:39 pm)
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    ezSupporter
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    which proportion?

    Catching up on my holiday pile of newspapers.
    The local rag is called The Signal, www.the-signal.com/ - they are pretty amateurish on good days, and and downright High School level on bad ones. They generally have a very microscopically-local viewpoint.
    The L.A. Times has a reputation as a frothing-at-the-mouth Anti-Gun bastion of Liberal ideals (how's that for a bias? - my own I mean ), www.latimes.com/
    The other major L.A. paper is The Daily News - it's gone downhill quite a bit after being bought by a conglomerate a couple of years ago, now it is very like USA Today, with a 4-page coversheet on local news. ( - used to be a GREAT paper) www.dailynews.com/

    Quoting from Tuesday's Signal headline article:
    "Kuredjian (Rich-the Deputy) had arrived at the scene sometime between 8:35 and 8:50am Friday, following the initial exchange of gunfire that ensued when Federal agents tried to serve a warrant at Beck's home..."
    "Deeley (Rich-Sheriff's Lt / Spokesman) said Kuredjian was crouched behind a red sport utility vehicle parked in the street, a distance of about one-and-one-half houses from the suspect's." (Rich-that's about 80-90ft in that neighborhood)
    "When (Kuredjian) stood up to fire a shot he was hit in the head,"
    "He said that from the sharp angle of the bullet wound, the fatal shot had a downward trajectory, leaving no doubt that Beck fired the round that killed the 40-year-old Deputy"

    Now I gotta say, that angle, and the suppositions going on here mean little, and are being presented by both the Lt. and the newspaper as FACT.
    Very likely the shot was fired by Beck, but without some better idea of the layout of shooter positions, who knows?
    I haven't not yet seen anything on ballistics / recovered rounds. There certainly was / will be an autopsy on the Deputy, and one was scheduled on Beck's charred remains, yesterday (and to make sure it's even Beck).
    Looking for more info on these things, now.

    Rich


    zombiedawg
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 60
    (9/5/01 1:10:37 pm)
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    Keep us posted
    Was anyone watching as the deputy was shot or what?
    It sounds as though there was quite a bit of gunfire coming from people other than Beck.
    I believe that the cops were even shooting at the wrong house at one point.

    Robert Harden
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 81
    (9/5/01 2:53:33 pm)
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    Do keep us posted. I think somewhere I read that a rounds went into a neighboring house. I think it was here in this forum from a news article, not sure. I don't think they were shooting at the wrong house, but more like ricochet or bad aim.

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    LIKTOSHOOT
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 2169
    (9/5/01 3:15:15 pm)
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    Don`t know if they fired on the wrong house, but one neighbor claimed they did and were advised by that person it was the wrong house. 7 houses were hit during the battle that are known of as of now, I`m sure they were all fired by this very eVil criminal, everyone knows he was barracading doors and stockpiling guns and ammo. I always loved that angle of the dangel theory, with one eye wittness (COP) doubt he could have been squating(as was reported earlier) and shot by someone standing or from a higher position, dang good shooting while under a volley of fire on a pop-up target (or bouncing bullets) It still stinks, no matter how you spin it....there was a better way and we all know it. The day I fear is the day they go up against someone who will show them the real rules of engagement, they will then be made aware that controlled fire can be delivered under stress and the hits will prove it....................................................
    "am not" R2

    AntiqueDr
    Moderator
    Posts: 741
    (9/5/01 3:42:05 pm)
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    You know, that's already happened after a fashion. Everyone, I'm sure, has seen the LA street shootout with the bank robbers heavily armed and body armored.

    Those guys were cool under fire and exhibited a fairly sophisticated degree of tactical awareness during the beginning. Imagine serving a search warrant on their home base!


    AGunguy
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 225
    (9/5/01 5:03:59 pm)
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    You guys talking about those two Romanians or Russian perps? As I remember it they got wax finally, but quite a few LA PD officers got seriously wounded. Can't remember if any fatalities on the cops though.

    The cops went to a local gun emporium and begged the owner to let them have some M-16s to combat the perps while the fight was in progress. They didn't have any fire power except hand guns and shotguns.

    The two perps had AKs with full auto and a lot of extra magazines on their body armour.
     
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