I have to choose between Savage Model 10 Predator Hunter Brush and a Browning BLR lightweight. Both are .223rem,Both are new, Which one would be more accurate? My question is accuracy,, not worried about weight, price or looks
Thanks G
Thanks G
Savage mod 10 vs Browning BLR
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Wait a minute, JLA. The Browning is not a regular old lever action rifle!
Winchesters and Marlin levers hold the bolt closed at the rear with vertical bar(s) whereas the BLR has a rotating bolt just like a bolt gun. The fact that the BLR is a lever should not lump it in with the other levers of earlier designs. The BLR receiver is not included in the strength issue (stretch during firing) as is the case with the others.
Agreed, the stock is attached such that it can not fully float like a bolt gun but the BLR can shoot accurately and is a MOA accurate gun given the right loads. At least mine in 243 is and it is not the coveted Belgium made version but the Japanese version, as are all the new ones made today.
Although the poster was only interested in pure accuracy (and your answer has the potential of being correct), when other things are considered like looks, handling, easy of carry for hunting, I think the BLR should be considered and not dismissed as just another lever gun, which it most definitely is not.
LDBennett
Winchesters and Marlin levers hold the bolt closed at the rear with vertical bar(s) whereas the BLR has a rotating bolt just like a bolt gun. The fact that the BLR is a lever should not lump it in with the other levers of earlier designs. The BLR receiver is not included in the strength issue (stretch during firing) as is the case with the others.
Agreed, the stock is attached such that it can not fully float like a bolt gun but the BLR can shoot accurately and is a MOA accurate gun given the right loads. At least mine in 243 is and it is not the coveted Belgium made version but the Japanese version, as are all the new ones made today.
Although the poster was only interested in pure accuracy (and your answer has the potential of being correct), when other things are considered like looks, handling, easy of carry for hunting, I think the BLR should be considered and not dismissed as just another lever gun, which it most definitely is not.
LDBennett
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LD, the BLR is a fine levergun, but it is still a split stock, Bedding inconsistencies fore and aft, and will never shoot as well as a Bolt action of similar quality. Yes a BLR might outshoot a Marlin XL7 with its cheap chinese plastic stock, but the BLR is a 800 dollar leveraction, lay it on the bench next to a 800 dollar Rem 700 XCR and the BLR will lose each and every time. The design of the rifle prohibits the bedding consistency required to shoot SUB MOA.
You show me a Leveraction that can string 10 shots into an inch at 100 yds. Just 1.. I can show you countless bolt actions that can string 20 into an inch at 100 yds. I own 3, and if I were to scope my Garand, 03A3, and M39 id own 6.
You show me a Leveraction that can string 10 shots into an inch at 100 yds. Just 1.. I can show you countless bolt actions that can string 20 into an inch at 100 yds. I own 3, and if I were to scope my Garand, 03A3, and M39 id own 6.
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Why must a hunting rifle shoot 10 shots into 1"? A hunter who fires 3 shots and still has a target must have killed the animal with his first shot.
JLA:
My concern was you lumped all lever guns together and did not point out that that the BLR was completely different. I even gave you "Although the poster was only interested in pure accuracy (and your answer has the potential of being correct)....".
What is accurate to some is not for others. Without knowing the real interest of the poster we must assume his uses. You assumed bench rest accuracy (a reasonable assumption since he asked for the "Most accurate") and I assumed hunting or non-competitive target shooting (I guessed that was what he might really need ???). I wonder which the poster is after?
A MOA gun (which my BLR is) is adequate for most non-competitive shooting sports but would fail miserable in a competition shooting contest. But I sure would not like to carry around a bench rest gun on a hunt. I also wonder if a better shooter than me could get even better results than MOA out of a BLR? In addition I think a lot of people like the bragging rights of a sub-MOA gun when that is not really their need. In this case anyone asking to compare accuracy between any lever action and any bolt gun, I think is looking for MOA accuracy, not sub-MOA accuracy but of course I am only guessing.
I'll also give you that any two piece stocked gun like any lever is at a disadvantage for accuracy compared to good bolt gun with a single piece floated barrel stock. But the BLR is a sleeper since it is really a bolt gun that is lever operated with no receiver stretch as seen in other lever guns. That was my whole point.
LDBennett
My concern was you lumped all lever guns together and did not point out that that the BLR was completely different. I even gave you "Although the poster was only interested in pure accuracy (and your answer has the potential of being correct)....".
What is accurate to some is not for others. Without knowing the real interest of the poster we must assume his uses. You assumed bench rest accuracy (a reasonable assumption since he asked for the "Most accurate") and I assumed hunting or non-competitive target shooting (I guessed that was what he might really need ???). I wonder which the poster is after?
A MOA gun (which my BLR is) is adequate for most non-competitive shooting sports but would fail miserable in a competition shooting contest. But I sure would not like to carry around a bench rest gun on a hunt. I also wonder if a better shooter than me could get even better results than MOA out of a BLR? In addition I think a lot of people like the bragging rights of a sub-MOA gun when that is not really their need. In this case anyone asking to compare accuracy between any lever action and any bolt gun, I think is looking for MOA accuracy, not sub-MOA accuracy but of course I am only guessing.
I'll also give you that any two piece stocked gun like any lever is at a disadvantage for accuracy compared to good bolt gun with a single piece floated barrel stock. But the BLR is a sleeper since it is really a bolt gun that is lever operated with no receiver stretch as seen in other lever guns. That was my whole point.
LDBennett
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Accurate is accurate whether it be Bench rest or off hand. The bolt action that can hold an inch or better fromt he bench leave more capability to the shooter firing offhand. I dont see your argument aside from just touting the merits of the BLR.. which again, I agree is the best of the leverguns, but again, will never be as good as a bolt action of comparable price.
'Lever operated bolt action' or not. the BLR is still a 2 piece stocked rifle and can not ever be what a bolt action can be. And Im not talking heavy bench guns. A bolt action in a good stock with a #3 sporter contour will still hold more accuracy potential than a BLR.
Heres where ill use your own words against you.. "We all get to choose".. Leveractions can be fantastic rifles and most are. the BLR is at the top among leverguns, with the Savage 99 right behind it IMO. But none of them will ever be bolt actions in the accuracy dept.
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Id bet my hard earned cash against it... Give me a BLR in .223 and a savage 10 in .223 (and the savage 10 is cheaper i might add) and Ill shoot a full box of 20 rounds thru each rifle at 200 yds at the center bull of each rifles own target. Same ammo, scope, rest and shooter for each gun. And ill even alternate rifles each shot. Ill bet you my hard earned cash the savage will have the tighter group.
Im not making a blind assumption here. I am confident because i know what the outcome will be.
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Are we to assume that because a rifle is a bolt action that it will always be more accurate? If over many years and many rifles most of us have learned there is no constants in action types. These modern lever actions with rotating locked breechs are not Winchester Saddle rifles.
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Nobody ever said they were. and yes, you can assume a bolt action rifle will always the more accurate choice. Bolt action design is simple, ridgid, and provides plenty of footprint to solidly bed to a stock to so you can leave the barrel floated. Not so much with leverguns, falling blocks, tip ups, where the buttstocks bolt to the rear of the actions and the forestock attaches via dovetail slots and band clamp or fore-end nut.. or semi autos, though some semi autos ( such as AR-15s and 10s, and well tuned M1As and M1 Garands) are quite accurate and can be compared to similarly tuned bolt actions with neglegible difference in accuracy potential.
But bottom line.. The leveraction design just doesnt have the accuracy potential, by design, that a bolt action does.. No matter how you cut it or how much you want to argue it..
But bottom line.. The leveraction design just doesnt have the accuracy potential, by design, that a bolt action does.. No matter how you cut it or how much you want to argue it..
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I would have agreed with you 10 years ago. But nothing is forever things are changing. The new MIAI match rifles will shoot with any thing. In the past an auto could not do it.
JLA:
Take a look at the Brownells schematic for a BLR-81. The front stock is not hung on the barrel "via dovetail slots " but on a rod (hanger) the screws into the front of the receiver. There is a barrel band which just adds support for carrying. The front stock can be floated and the barrel band floated or just removed.
So the BLR has the receiver stiffness of a bolt gun and a stock that can be floated. So what else limits its accuracy?
LDBennett
Take a look at the Brownells schematic for a BLR-81. The front stock is not hung on the barrel "via dovetail slots " but on a rod (hanger) the screws into the front of the receiver. There is a barrel band which just adds support for carrying. The front stock can be floated and the barrel band floated or just removed.
So the BLR has the receiver stiffness of a bolt gun and a stock that can be floated. So what else limits its accuracy?
LDBennett
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672 Posts
OK, Here's one right here, I was going to just stay out of this because most people believe only a bolt action gun can have the kind of accuracy you are talking about.....because that's what they have been told, just like many select thier first deer rifle chambered in 30.06, why? because they don't know any better and they think 30.06 sounds cool, I'll admit that the '06 and the 30-30 have probably put down more deer than several other calibre's combined, simply because so many people won those calibre's, there's nothing wrong with them, I just prefer not to lob my projectiles in an arching fashion
I prefer something a little more direct and flat shooting,It's just another Ford/Chevy argument, it's not how the action is operated, it's how it locks up and how securely it holds the round in the chamber right? and yes, how the barrrel/action is bedded/mounted, am I wrong??
Here's a pic of a lever gun that will do 3/4" or less "all day every day", as long as I do my part,
Now I know this isn't fair, because when you say "lever gun", this is not what 99.8% of the folks reading are picturing in thier head,
Just sayin', there are lever guns, and even a semi-auto or 2 that will deliver the kind of accuracy you are talking about, with a 2 piece stock even, I can show you a pic of one of those too if you need
All in good fun guys, don't waste too much ammo on me
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I have one of each...A Steyr Elite heavy barrel in .223, bolt action and a BLR in .243. I have developed loads for each one; the Steyr gets tighter groups at 100 yards, but the BLR has a heavier bullet.so holds trajectory slightly better at longer distances. At least I was able to hit more falling plates at 200 yards with the BLR than with the .223.
I looked at the owner's manual for the BLR; the cleaning process is limited...you can't take the bolt out, according to the literature--reassembly is a real trick to get the rotating action back just right. Maintenance on a BLR is a different story from the bolt action.
I looked at the owner's manual for the BLR; the cleaning process is limited...you can't take the bolt out, according to the literature--reassembly is a real trick to get the rotating action back just right. Maintenance on a BLR is a different story from the bolt action.
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