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GUNZILLA
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We had a Schutzen club at my range and than the club got stupid with the by-laws and attempted to incorporate religious restrictions. Disbanded purty quickly after that. Best luck I had with that club because shortly after that meeting one of the members sold me his 52C Winchester for $500.
 

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Tinman, where are you in Missouri? I'm near Rolla. Maybe we could hold our own match!

When I got my first Schuetzen rifle I did the same thing, looked for some local matches. My results were the same as yours. There is one in Iowa but I've forgotten when and where and I believe the NMLRA holds one at Friendship, Indiana and again I don't remember when. Mark, Firpo, gave a very good source in the ASSRA. I wrote an article for them a couple years ago on the classic Schuetzen cartridge, the 8.15 X 46R and, though I never joined, they did publish it. You should also check out the German Gun Collector's Assn. as they have a board dedicated to Schuetzen rifles.


As you've expressed an interest in Schuetzen matches and rifles there is at least one book you NEED. That is "Alte Scheibenwaffen, Volume 1". You can find it on Amazon and I believe the German Gun Collector's Assn. has it as well. Don't choke at the price, it ain't a $5.00 paperback but, the photography alone is worth the tariff.

Very briefly, there was an American style and German style of Schuetzen. The targets and distances were different and the Americans allowed breech seating and palm rests, the Germans did not. Other than that they were the same basic matches and rifles. Even the most popular cartridges were similar. Americans used the 32-40 and in Germany it was the aforementioned 8.15 X 46R...which is easily made from 30-30 brass. The matches were exceedingly popular in Germany from about the 1870's up to almost the beginning of WWII with some national matches attracting 8,000 shooters. In the US they were hugely popular across the nation from about the 1880's until the beginning of WWI when anti-German sentiment killed off all too many beautiful and wonderful German traditions.

Tinman, tell us about your rifle. It looks to be a Beuchel...if I spelled that right. Most were chambered for the 8.15 X 46R after about 1890 or perhaps a bit later. Given the keyed forestock I'm thinking pre-WWI. I'd love to see the proof marks.

I have two Haenel/Aydt's, one in 8.15 X 46R and the other in a cartridge not even Axel Eichenorff had heard of so we named it the 8.7 X 55R. One is pretty basic, the other isn't. I can only find pictures of one....and I know I have pics of the other.

P1010048.JPG


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I always used to think those rifles were hideously ugly until one day at work Joe had one out of the vault and I shouldered it. Whoever it was built for must have been of a similar size to me as it fit me like a glove. Closing my eyes and getting a comfortable cheek weld, when I opened my eyes I was looking through the peep sight and it was right on the target spot I had my eye on before I shouldered the rifle, I felt like I couldn't miss if I was to be on the range shooting it. And that's when I saw the beauty in it's design.
 

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I was pretty much of the same opinion Griz, until I had to have one just to put with my other German rifles. Shouldering it was one thing, shooting another. I did bench the bottom rifle and shot I want to remember a .343, 4 shot group at 100 yards. The bullet is .345. I was too big a coward to shoot the 5th round. It's rare I shot groups that good with a scoped rifle.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Tinman, where are you in Missouri? I'm near Rolla. Maybe we could hold our own match!

When I got my first Schuetzen rifle I did the same thing, looked for some local matches. My results were the same as yours. There is one in Iowa but I've forgotten when and where and I believe the NMLRA holds one at Friendship, Indiana and again I don't remember when. Mark, Firpo, gave a very good source in the ASSRA. I wrote an article for them a couple years ago on the classic Schuetzen cartridge, the 8.15 X 46R and, though I never joined, they did publish it. You should also check out the German Gun Collector's Assn. as they have a board dedicated to Schuetzen rifles.


As you've expressed an interest in Schuetzen matches and rifles there is at least one book you NEED. That is "Alte Scheibenwaffen, Volume 1". You can find it on Amazon and I believe the German Gun Collector's Assn. has it as well. Don't choke at the price, it ain't a $5.00 paperback but, the photography alone is worth the tariff.

Very briefly, there was an American style and German style of Schuetzen. The targets and distances were different and the Americans allowed breech seating and palm rests, the Germans did not. Other than that they were the same basic matches and rifles. Even the most popular cartridges were similar. Americans used the 32-40 and in Germany it was the aforementioned 8.15 X 46R...which is easily made from 30-30 brass. The matches were exceedingly popular in Germany from about the 1870's up to almost the beginning of WWII with some national matches attracting 8,000 shooters. In the US they were hugely popular across the nation from about the 1880's until the beginning of WWI when anti-German sentiment killed off all too many beautiful and wonderful German traditions.

Tinman, tell us about your rifle. It looks to be a Beuchel...if I spelled that right. Most were chambered for the 8.15 X 46R after about 1890 or perhaps a bit later. Given the keyed forestock I'm thinking pre-WWI. I'd love to see the proof marks.

I have two Haenel/Aydt's, one in 8.15 X 46R and the other in a cartridge not even Axel Eichenorff had heard of so we named it the 8.7 X 55R. One is pretty basic, the other isn't. I can only find pictures of one....and I know I have pics of the other.

View attachment 238962

View attachment 238963
Thank you for all of the information! I live near Warrenton, MO. I have yet to shoot it, but I do have the 8.15 x 46 rounds so I don't have to search for any. The maker is Johann Peterlongo from Innsbruck, Austria. I can't seem to find any dates, however the company was in business for 115 years before closing in the 1970's. I was hoping that Herman, MO would have something since they have such a big Octoberfest, but no luck. I don't belong to any gun clubs, but I would be down for getting together to put have our own match. Thanks again for the info and pointing me in the right direction. I'm going to check out the ASSRA like Mark said.

A few more pics
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If Peterlongo actually made it, you got one of the best in my opinion. It's likely he sourced at least the action from Haenel and maybe the entire rifle, perhaps in the white, and finished it in house. The industry in Germany and Austria at that time was so convoluted it's often impossible to put all the pieces together. I have a Peterlongo, Mauser 98 in his proprietary 9 X 71 Peterlongo cartridge. Think 35 Whelen on steroids. The rifle would be exquisite except when it was liberated and brought home someone did some utterly needless modifications. They were purely cosmetic.

I did misspell Buchel and I got my Alte Scheibenwaffen book out and I believe I'm also wrong about what you have. From the pictures in the book you have a System Aydt, Type III. It isn't a falling block although it seems like that from the outside. It's actually a swinging block wherein the breech block is sort of like a "T" and it swings on a pin from the bottom of the "T". The pin foremost on the receiver is the pivot. My two rifles are Type 1's where the extractor is on the outside of the receiver.

I believe Hermann did have a Schuetzen club before WWI. Many small towns did and any city with even a token German population had one. St. Louis had a big club but I don't remember reading anything about Kansas City. It's easier to believe KC had a club than they didn't.

I'd still like to see the proofs on the bottom of the barrel. They can tell us a lot and, given it's a Type III, there has to be a proof date on the bottom of the barrel. If Peterlongo actually made the rifle or put it together from a sourced action it should have a Ferlach proof mark. Pull the barrel key and the fore arm will slip right off. Most keys on Schuetzen rifles have a retaining pin so if it stops, don't force it, it's intended to stay in the slot.

One more edit. Open the action and take a picture of the bottom tang. Those are typical set triggers for a Schuetzen rifle and you should be able to lift up on the knob at their very rear and the entire assembly will lift out. There are no surprises, they're built as a unit and nothing is going to go flying off into Never-Never Land. Easy out, easy in, they were designed that way. When you get them out your eyes will be treated to the finest set trigger mechanism ever developed. Rather than the typical 2 lever triggers, these are 4 lever which allows the trigger to be set to ounces....and it probably is.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
If Peterlongo actually made it, you got one of the best in my opinion. It's likely he sourced at least the action from Haenel and maybe the entire rifle, perhaps in the white, and finished it in house. The industry in Germany and Austria at that time was so convoluted it's often impossible to put all the pieces together. I have a Peterlongo, Mauser 98 in his proprietary 9 X 71 Peterlongo cartridge. Think 35 Whelen on steroids. The rifle would be exquisite except when it was liberated and brought home someone did some utterly needless modifications. They were purely cosmetic.

I did misspell Buchel and I got my Alte Scheibenwaffen book out and I believe I'm also wrong about what you have. From the pictures in the book you have a System Aydt, Type III. It isn't a falling block although it seems like that from the outside. It's actually a swinging block wherein the breech block is sort of like a "T" and it swings on a pin from the bottom of the "T". The pin foremost on the receiver is the pivot. My two rifles are Type 1's where the extractor is on the outside of the receiver.

I believe Hermann did have a Schuetzen club before WWI. Many small towns did and any city with even a token German population had one. St. Louis had a big club but I don't remember reading anything about Kansas City. It's easier to believe KC had a club than they didn't.

I'd still like to see the proofs on the bottom of the barrel. They can tell us a lot and, given it's a Type III, there has to be a proof date on the bottom of the barrel. If Peterlongo actually made the rifle or put it together from a sourced action it should have a Ferlach proof mark. Pull the barrel key and the fore arm will slip right off. Most keys on Schuetzen rifles have a retaining pin so if it stops, don't force it, it's intended to stay in the slot.

One more edit. Open the action and take a picture of the bottom tang. Those are typical set triggers for a Schuetzen rifle and you should be able to lift up on the knob at their very rear and the entire assembly will lift out. There are no surprises, they're built as a unit and nothing is going to go flying off into Never-Never Land. Easy out, easy in, they were designed that way. When you get them out your eyes will be treated to the finest set trigger mechanism ever developed. Rather than the typical 2 lever triggers, these are 4 lever which allows the trigger to be set to ounces....and it probably is.
Yikes, those books are a bit expensive, but from all the comments well worth it. I am not quite sure how to pull the barrel key at the moment. I will look into that. I did pull the assembly.
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GUNZILLA
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If I had ever encountered a Schuetzen rifle that had an ambidextrous butt stock I would have purchased one. As a southpaw they were not suitable for me, and in reality I never pursued getting one made.
 
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The barrel key is just like a muzzleloader, it pushes out toward the side with the head. There should be a slot on the opposite side. Usually a good fitting screwdriver in the slot and a light bump with the heel of your hand and they slide right out. That's easier than figuring out the trigger group.
 
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
The barrel key is just like a muzzleloader, it pushes out toward the side with the head. There should be a slot on the opposite side. Usually a good fitting screwdriver in the slot and a light bump with the heel of your hand and they slide right out. That's easier than figuring out the trigger group.
I removed the pin, but there is also another release like the action removal. I lifted that out but still cannot remove the forearm
 

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There's a Deeley and Edge type release on the bottom of the forearm? Never saw that on a Schuetzen but I've by no means seen it all. It could just be stuck. They can get pretty tight over 75 years...
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
There's a Deeley and Edge type release on the bottom of the forearm? Never saw that on a Schuetzen but I've by no means seen it all. It could just be stuck. They can get pretty tight over 75 years...
It must be, but I get a bit nervous not having a lot of knowledge.
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Son-of-a-gun.....that isn't a Deeley and Edge but it's similar....and I have never seen that on a Schuetzen rifle. I'm sorry, other than keep wiggling it I don't know what to tell you. Geez...look at that inletting at the action front, in and around the slot. Looks as if the wood grew up around the metal. No wonder it's tight!!

You know, on both mine the forearm has to move forward just a bit so the wood can clear the mortise in the front of the action. I believe I'd put it in a gun vise upside down and shape an old piece of ramrod or dowel to fit the curvature of the round hole where the lever fits. Then use that in the hole and tap it very lightly toward the front. If you're comfortable trying that, I know you won't get western with it. If it breaks loose, then it's just wiggling it off.

Maybe Mike or gr or Griz has an idea. I'm just a home hack, they're gunsmiths.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Son-of-a-gun.....that isn't a Deeley and Edge but it's similar....and I have never seen that on a Schuetzen rifle. I'm sorry, other than keep wiggling it I don't know what to tell you. Geez...look at that inletting at the action front, in and around the slot. Looks as if the wood grew up around the metal. No wonder it's tight!!

You know, on both mine the forearm has to move forward just a bit so the wood can clear the mortise in the front of the action. I believe I'd put it in a gun vise upside down and shape an old piece of ramrod or dowel to fit the curvature of the round hole where the lever fits. Then use that in the hole and tap it very lightly toward the front. If you're comfortable trying that, I know you won't get western with it. If it breaks loose, then it's just wiggling it off.

Maybe Mike or gr or Griz has an idea. I'm just a home hack, they're gunsmiths.
Thanks for all your help, I will give it a try. I have a local gunsmith that might be willing to help me out if I can't figure it out. Once I find out the barrel proofs I will let you know.
 
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