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I'm less of a gunsmith than a barrel smith, but I'd guess there is a mortise and tennon at the join of the stock and receiver. Knowing about how "anal retentive" German gunsmiths were on wood to metal fit, I suspect the tennon was inlet as tight as the old gunsmith could make it. Not disparaging Germans, as I'm a little anal retentive when it comes to wood to metal fit myself. :)
 

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They will be right in front of the receiver, on the bottom of the barrel. I'm really looking forward to seeing them.
 

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Hmmmm....isn't that interesting. I did not expect that at all. That is a very interesting fore arm latch as well. I never saw one like it BUT, I believe yours is the first series 3 Haenel/Aydt I've seen taken down.
 

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Sharps, no proof marks means pre 1893?
 
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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
Hmmmm....isn't that interesting. I did not expect that at all. That is a very interesting fore arm latch as well. I never saw one like it BUT, I believe yours is the first series 3 Haenel/Aydt I've seen taken down.
I was quite excited to remove the fore end. I had contacted a gunsmith in Innsbruck, Austria. After several emails and not really getting anywhere, he suggested oiling the wood along the barrel as well as heating the barrel. This was suggested by others too, but I finally removed it and my drum roll moment was, well, less than the "Eureka" moment I was hoping for. Still think this baby has more to show inside the lock.
 

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Ok, so I just joined so that I can post to this thread. I just purchased a much older Aydt-system Schuetzen in 8.15mmx46R. Much to my surprise it was a takedown rifle! Yours is the same. That lever on the bottom of the barrel is the takedown mechanism. My rifle has an identical mechanism. Rotate the lever and barrel up (clockwise as you hold the rifle) 90 degrees and the barrel will slip out. It has an interrupted thread and will takedown into two pieces - without removing the wood. Make sure the extractor is not in the slot on the barrel. My rifle is the older Aydt system and the extractor pulls forward to clear the barrel slot. You'll probably have to open the action first. Good luck!
 

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Furdog, Take some pictures of your Aydt-system Schuetzen and post them. We like to see gun porn and these old Shuetzen rifles are not something we see a lot of. Especially a take down action.
 

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Very Nice! That take down system sure explains why it had both a wedge for the forearm and that lever. We learn something new every day and thanks for teaching me today's lesson.
 

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Thanks for the kind words! I've only had this rifle a few days and I was unsure of what that lever was for. Couldn't figure out until I saw the small pin in the detent in the action. When I saw that I figured it was there for a reason...and sure enough, the barrel rotated up 90 degrees! Now the only other mystery I have is that the rifle has a sling swivel at the butt, and none on the barrel. I've never seen that before, unless a customer had the gun converted to a takedown after it was made, and the new barrel didn't have a sling swivel by design. If anyone knows where you can find Schuetzen sling swivels, let me know. The rifle was made by Rob. Samitz in Hermagor, Austria. Hermagor is a town in Carinthia, near the Italian border in the Alps.
 

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@sharps4590 might have a better idea than I do on Schuetzen sling swivels and how they would have attached to the front, besides he is going to want to look at your rifle. :)
 

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furdog, I had absolutely no idea any Schuetzen rifles were made as a takedown. As Griz said, we learn something new every day and I thank you as well. I'm pretty sure yours is a Series 1, with the external extractor but I'll need to double check. Both of mine are #1's.

Couple questions, if I may. Is there any proofs on yours and if so, where are they on the barrel? Do you have any load data or do you need any, if you plan to shoot it and, did the barrel sight come with it? I'll look at mine and see where the front swivel is. Off the top of my head I believe they were soldered to the barrel as with most Germanic firearms of the era. And yes, that is a lovely rifle, congrats on its acquisition. I don't know if you've worked with them before, if not, both mine are....amazingly accurate. I can't imagine yours would be any different. Does the bore look new? Both mine do. Those ol' boys took care of their rifles.

Dave, ordinarily I would say yes to pre-1891/93 but, I'm thinking the action was not being made until after that. I'll have to check that as well. Both of mine are proofed well after the 91/93 law If furdog's proof marks are on the barrel shank that goes in the receiver, that would explain why Tinman's rifle doesn't show any. Always more to learn.
 

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Discussion Starter · #35 ·
Ok, so I just joined so that I can post to this thread. I just purchased a much older Aydt-system Schuetzen in 8.15mmx46R. Much to my surprise it was a takedown rifle! Yours is the same. That lever on the bottom of the barrel is the takedown mechanism. My rifle has an identical mechanism. Rotate the lever and barrel up (clockwise as you hold the rifle) 90 degrees and the barrel will slip out. It has an interrupted thread and will takedown into two pieces - without removing the wood. Make sure the extractor is not in the slot on the barrel. My rifle is the older Aydt system and the extractor pulls forward to clear the barrel slot. You'll probably have to open the action first. Good luck!
I tried that once with no success, but I will give it a shot again. It seems quite logical that it would be, but I have been very leery of forcing anything for fear of damaging such a sweet rifle! Glad you joined up and nice pictures!
 

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I tried that once with no success, but I will give it a shot again. It seems quite logical that it would be, but I have been very leery of forcing anything for fear of damaging such a sweet rifle! Glad you joined up and nice pictures!
So here's another Picture. I think my mechanism is the same as yours. Perhaps a bit of Kroil applied sparingly to the barrel/action seam would help. I actually had to put the barrel in a vise (leather jaws, or brass) and put a block of wood in the action with the internals dismounted. Then I was able to break the barrel free. Like you, I feared damage...but the takedown mechanism was obvious, so no fear. I will also say that my barrel may not rotate the same way as yours...caution!
244912
 

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furdog, I had absolutely no idea any Schuetzen rifles were made as a takedown. As Griz said, we learn something new every day and I thank you as well. I'm pretty sure yours is a Series 1, with the external extractor but I'll need to double check. Both of mine are #1's.

Couple questions, if I may. Is there any proofs on yours and if so, where are they on the barrel? Do you have any load data or do you need any, if you plan to shoot it and, did the barrel sight come with it? I'll look at mine and see where the front swivel is. Off the top of my head I believe they were soldered to the barrel as with most Germanic firearms of the era. And yes, that is a lovely rifle, congrats on its acquisition. I don't know if you've worked with them before, if not, both mine are....amazingly accurate. I can't imagine yours would be any different. Does the bore look new? Both mine do. Those ol' boys took care of their rifles.

Dave, ordinarily I would say yes to pre-1891/93 but, I'm thinking the action was not being made until after that. I'll have to check that as well. Both of mine are proofed well after the 91/93 law If furdog's proof marks are on the barrel shank that goes in the receiver, that would explain why Tinman's rifle doesn't show any. Always more to learn.
Sharps 4590, thanks for your comments! Here's a quick response to your questions:

1. There are no - as in none whatsoever - proof marks on the barrel. I have no Idea what Austrian gun laws were in effect when this rifle was built, but the only markings on the barrel are "Rob. Samitz, Hermagor". The action is marked "System Aydt" and has a Crown-B and Crown-U on it. I assume that the action was built and proofed separately and then purchased by Buchsenmacher Samitz who made the barrel and the rifle. My guess is there was no requirement in his day to proof a barrel - only the actions.. Austrian law was probably different than German law, and I'm guessing this rifle was made before 1918...not at all sure, purely a guess.

2. The barrel front sight is mounted, and the rear sight is in the box - I have the Full Monty - disk rear sight, adjustment key, and a second front sight of a different pattern.

3. The bore looks brand spankin' new, after cleaning. However - when I slugged the bore, I used a .313" pistol bullet and I got .310" for the grooves and .308" for the lands. Very small for 8.15x46R. I have some cerrosafe on the way and will do a chamber casting next week. Anyone heard of 8.15mm x 46R with that small of a bore?

4. As for the sling swivel, I am again guessing that it would be on a metal base that is dovetailed into the barrel. The lug for the forearm on my rifle is a dovetail.

And YES, I absolutely intend to shoot it and I would greatly appreciate any load data! :D

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No sir, you don't have the full Monty. There is a rear sight that goes on the barrel, on that rail above the forearm, as well as the aperture sight mounted at the wrist. That's the one I'm asking about. If I remember right, the sight on the barrel was for the 175 meter target and the aperture sight for the 300 meter target. I have one for the rifle in my avatar....and a picture, if it's on this computer.

Yes sir, Austria and Germany had different proof laws until I believe 1938, after the Anschluss. After the war they were again separate. The crown over the B and U are simply visual examinations and they are German, not Austrian. When your rifle was made, Haenel still controlled the "patent." I'm pretty sure your action was made in Germany by Aydt. What is on the side of the breech block on your rifle? Herr Samitz probably bought the barrel and fit it to the action and stocked it. I don't yet fully understand the lack of proofs on yours and Tinman's rifles. I'll have to get out Alte Scheibenwaffen and check Haenel's dates.

All the sling swivels I've seen on Schuetzen rifles were not dove tailed, they were soldered. I don't believe they would interfere with the integrity of a barrel by cutting a dovetail. The rear barrel sight is not dove tailed, it slides on that rail on the barrel. Both mine are soldered.

I don't know that your bore dimensions are worthy of question. First off those ol' makers at that time thought tight chambers and barrels shot better. Secondly, that was well before CPI and before "Normalization" so barrel and rifle makers did what they wanted. You'll find bore/groove diameters all over the place. Yours might not be a bad thing, you can use .311-.312 bullets, unless your chamber cast proves otherwise. I'll have to dig out my load data.

I do have that picture of the sight, not a very good one though. It's to the left of the little wrench I made to adjust my sight.

P1010047 (3).JPG
 
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No sir, you don't have the full Monty. There is a rear sight that goes on the barrel, on that rail above the forearm, as well as the aperture sight mounted at the wrist. That's the one I'm asking about. If I remember right, the sight on the barrel was for the 175 meter target and the aperture sight for the 300 meter target. I have one for the rifle in my avatar....and a picture, if it's on this computer.

Yes sir, Austria and Germany had different proof laws until I believe 1938, after the Anschluss. After the war they were again separate. The crown over the B and U are simply visual examinations and they are German, not Austrian. When your rifle was made, Haenel still controlled the "patent." I'm pretty sure your action was made in Germany by Aydt. What is on the side of the breech block on your rifle? Herr Samitz probably bought the barrel and fit it to the action and stocked it. I don't yet fully understand the lack of proofs on yours and Tinman's rifles. I'll have to get out Alte Scheibenwaffen and check Haenel's dates.

All the sling swivels I've seen on Schuetzen rifles were not dove tailed, they were soldered. I don't believe they would interfere with the integrity of a barrel by cutting a dovetail. The rear barrel sight is not dove tailed, it slides on that rail on the barrel. Both mine are soldered.

I don't know that your bore dimensions are worthy of question. First off those ol' makers at that time thought tight chambers and barrels shot better. Secondly, that was well before CPI and before "Normalization" so barrel and rifle makers did what they wanted. You'll find bore/groove diameters all over the place. Yours might not be a bad thing, you can use .311-.312 bullets, unless your chamber cast proves otherwise. I'll have to dig out my load data.

I do have that picture of the sight, not a very good one though. It's to the left of the little wrench I made to adjust my sight.

View attachment 244918
Well, Sharps4950, that is one honkin' beautiful rifle you have there!

Yup, my assumption was that the action was German-made and the rifle custom assembled in Austria, hence the Crown-B & U proofs. The markings on the receiver are those two proofs and a "Syst Aydt" on the side of the block and "Original System Aydt" in Roman font on the top of the receiver, filled in with gold.

My experience with these rifles is 1 Each and so I defer to you on swivels and such, although I will point out that Herr Samitz dovetailed the forearm lug in my barrel :) As for the mid-barrel sight, I do not have one and I see what you mean by it, thanks for the photo. But the box I have has no room for it...perhaps it was an option with this gunmaker.

To learn more, I have ordered all three volumes of "Alte Scheibenwaffen" and will start doing some research when they arrive. I have found virtually no other references on these guns in English. so if you have some suggestions on books, it would be welcome. And I did order the book, "Die Schützenpatrone 8,15 x 46 R und ihre Varianten" from a publishing house in Germany so I will be able to do some research on the cartridge when that arrives. See the link: Buchtipps - Patronensammlervereinigung

And of course, cerrosafe tells all. I'll do the cast to include the throat and a bit of barrel and see what it tells us. Much obliged for all the comments! Cheers!
 

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3. The bore looks brand spankin' new, after cleaning. However - when I slugged the bore, I used a .313" pistol bullet and I got .310" for the grooves and .308" for the lands. Very small for 8.15x46R. I have some cerrosafe on the way and will do a chamber casting next week. Anyone heard of 8.15mm x 46R with that small of a bore?
Although I'm not an expert on German or Austrian Scheutzen rifles, I am a barrel maker by trade, and some folks call me an expert at it, .308 in the bore and .310 in the grooves just doesn't sound right, that's a groove depth of only .001 per side. May I ask how many lands and grooves it has? If it is an odd number, it's hard to get an accurate measure.
 
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