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PLEASE, post pictures! You might not care about the value BUT pictures are really needed. This sticky post from over in the "Ask the pros" forum tells you what is needed, please click on it and read about it:
 

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Add photos and as much information as possible. We have several people here that can help.

Larry
 
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Hello TFF.

I need to find an expert in Kreighoff Drilling rifles. Can anyone help me ID an old one?

Thank you,

D
Yes, we have folks here that can absolutely help you identify your drilling however they cannot ID what they cannot see. You’ll need to separate the barrels from the receiver and post good clear images of all the proof marks both on the water table as well as the barrel flats. Additionally post images of the gun, both sides. You can’t give too much information.
 
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Ah, we do have an expert in all things drilling, @sharps4590 . I haven't seen him post anything in a couple of weeks, which is unlike him. Hopefully he will show up soon and tell you more than you would ever want to know! If he needs more pictures,he will let you know.
Hope vic sees it too, but he told me he wanted to take a break from his computer for a while.
 

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Vic is fine!

Seems as if you've already identified it as a Kreighoff. What else do you want to know? I can tell you as much or, likely more, than I did about your 1908 M/S.

The butt plate is horn and that is beetle damage.

The "Schwert und Anker" on the standing breech is the trademark of Kreighoff.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Thank you, Sharps.

So, you know that the butt plate was eaten by beetles. That alone is impressive.

It appears to me that there is an entire story here to be told about Kreighoff and affiliate companies and the practices of European firearms manufacturers producing parts for one another. For example, the rifle barrel is stamped Krupp Luafstahl, who appears to have made their own guns. It that correct?

The shotgun barrels are stamped Rochling Electro. Is that the steel source; Hermann Rochling? Kinda like Bofors on a Sako?

Is this model called Trumpf? Or is it Montage? Or another name or alphanumeric designation?

I found another gun for sale that looked nearly identical under the name Meffert. Were they and Kreighoff related, or were guns made by one for the other?

The gun is stamped with 7.8mm x 57. I found a Q&A where it was asked if 7.8 equates to 8mm Mauser and the answer appears to be NO. The walls of the rifle barrel seem really thin. Was the 7.8 a particularly low power cartridge?

The most recent edition of Modern Reloading, Richard Lee, does not have info about 7.8. Is there a 30-caliber offset?

Collectors Firearms in Houston had a similar gun for sale that they said chamber 2 1/2" shotgun shells. Would that be the same for all Kreighoff guns of this era?

Can the gun be dated? Is it from the pre-WWII era?

Thanks again.

Dennis
 

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Yes sir, beetles. Same beetles that eat powder horns.

Krupp never made a sporting arm in their existence. They made the steel the barrel is made from. Laufstahl translates to "barrel steel." The shotgun barrels were made from steel made by Rochling.

The German firearms industry up until WWII was still largely a cottage industry, much as the British firearms industry. The Germans had and still have a very defined apprenticeship/journeyman/Master gunsmithing program that takes about 6 years to complete. I don't know about today but between the wars if your "store" sold firearms, by law you had to have a Master gunsmith on staff.

What makes you say it is a Trumpf? As I understand it "Trumph" is the 3 bite locking system, not a particular model as there is also Trumph double guns. Generally, models as we think of them didn't exist until after WWII. That was an American thing. Drillngs were generally known by their barrel/cartridge configuration.

Suhl is a town in the gun making district of Thuringia, Germany where there was a proof house and where your drilling was proofed. NITRO in block letters confirms that. Had it been proofed in the neighboring town of Zella-Mehlis nitro would have been in script. It appears the rifle was proofed with a 15 gram, steel jacketed bullet. That's 231 grains.

The circled 12 indicates it was originally 2 1/2 in. chambers. You need to have them checked as many have been lengthened....but not all.

GENERALLY, 7,8 x 57 is the original 8 X 57 Mauser from the 1888 Commission rifle and has the .318 groove diameter. The "R" stands for a "rimmed" 8 X 57. The "new" 8 X 57 adopted in 1905 by the German military is generally believed to be stamped "7,9 X 57R" and has a .323 groove diameter. They are the same case. The ONLY way to remove all doubt is slug your bore. A chamber cast wouldn't hurt either. Some folks did some really stupid things to those old war trophies, which yours almost certainly is. I have a few in my accumulation. NEVER assume what any old, foreign firearm has stamped on it is correct....and you can ask me how I know that. .323 bullets are easily swaged down to .318 and data abounds, just start low....and in deference to the age of the gun, stay there. The proof mark pictures leave a lot to be desired but, I THINK I see a "536" or "636" that might be May or June of 1936 as date of proof. Though the parts might be several years older as they sat on the shelf for perhaps decades, the date of proof is generally considered the effective date of the firearm. Cleaner and more thorough pictures are needed.

It is entirely possible that a Meffert married a Kreighoff which would make the families related but the businesses never were, so far as I know. It is vastly more likely they used the same supplier AND, the "style" was shared among a bunch of makers. I doubt Kreighoff or Meffert ever made a firearm for the other. Meffert is one of the oldest gun making family/firms in Germany, dating I believe to the late 18th century. At one time I had a Meffert drilling on a Dural receiver in 16 X 16 over 7 X 57.

12 bore drillings were not very common before the war and generally are not as desirable as the more delightful handling 16 bore. I've never picked up a 12 bore drilling, old or new, that didn't feel "clubby" when compared to the svelte 16's. They just get too heavy....awkward feeling. And, that's a matter of taste....but a lot of drilling users share that taste.

This site might be of interest. Dispense with your preconceived notions of American firearms manufacture.

Dietrich Apel and the Foto Gallerie Suhl Waffenkunst or Gunmaker’s Poster Project – German Hunting Guns
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Thank you, Sharps.

In the time elapsed since sending my questions, I stumbled upon the link that you included with your response. Many, if not all of the questions I had asked are probably answered there. "Dispense with you preconceived notions of American firearms manufacture," is exactly what I concluded as I began to understand the German gun makers.

Sellers online are largely unreliable for accurate information about the firearms they are selling, e.g., they would reference Trumpf as a model name because they don't know any better. Or they might claim rarity because the gun has a particular name on it that makes it about as special as having its own unique serial number.

With new and useful information at my disposal I will continue my studies. There is much here worth learning, even if it's purely for self-edification. Unfortunately, I don't have friends who care to discuss German gun manufacturers. Unless they make plastic pistols.

D
 

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Yes sir, beetles. Same beetles that eat powder horns.

Krupp never made a sporting arm in their existence. They made the steel the barrel is made from. Laufstahl translates to "barrel steel." The shotgun barrels were made from steel made by Rochling.

The German firearms industry up until WWII was still largely a cottage industry, much as the British firearms industry. The Germans had and still have a very defined apprenticeship/journeyman/Master gunsmithing program that takes about 6 years to complete. I don't know about today nut between the wars if your "store" sold firearms, by law you had to have a Master gunsmith on staff.

What makes you say it is a Trumpf? As I understand it "Trumph" is the 3 bite locking system, not a particular model as there is also Trumph double guns. Generally, models as we think of them didn't exist until after WWII. That was an American thing. Drillngs were generally known by their barrel/cartridge configuration.

Suhl is a town in the gun making district of Thuringia, Germany where there was a proof house and where your drilling was proofed. NITRO in block letters confirms that. Had it been proofed in the neighboring town of Zella-Mehlis nitro would have been in script. It appears the rifle was proofed with a 15 gram, steel jacketed bullet. That's 231 grains.

The circled 12 indicates it was originally 2 1/2 in. chambers. You need to have them checked as many have been lengthened....but not all.

GENERALLY, 7,8 x 57 is the original 8 X 57 Mauser from the 1888 Commission rifle and has the .318 groove diameter. The "R" stands for a "rimmed" 8 X 57. The "new" 8 X 57 adopted in 1905 by the German military is generally believed to be stamped "7,9 X 57R" and has a .323 groove diameter. They are the same case. The ONLY way to remove all doubt is slug your bore. A chamber cast wouldn't hurt either. Some folks did some really stupid things to those old war trophies, which yours almost certainly is. I have a few in my accumulation. NEVER assume what any old, foreign firearm has stamped on it is correct....and you can ask me how I know that. .323 bullets are easily swaged down to .318 and data abounds, just start low....and in deference to the age of the gun, stay there. The proof mark pictures leave a lot to be desired but, I THINK I see a "536" or "636" that might be May or June of 1936 as date of proof. Though the parts might be several years older as they sat on the shelf for perhaps decades, the date of proof is generally considered the effective date of the firearm. Cleaner and more thorough pictures are needed.

It is entirely possible that a Meffert married a Kreighoff which would make the families related but the businesses never were, so far as I know. It is vastly more likely they used the same supplier AND, the "style" was shared among a bunch of makers. I doubt Kreighoff or Meffert ever made a firearm for the other. Meffert is one of the oldest gun making family/firms in Germany, dating I believe to the late 18th century. At one time I had a Meffert drilling on a Dural receiver in 16 X 16 over 7 X 57.

12 bore drillings were not very common before the war and generally are not as desirable as the more delightful handling 16 bore. I've never picked up a 12 bore drilling, old or new, that didn't feel "clubby" when compared to the svelte 16's. They just get too heavy....awkward feeling. And, that's a matter of taste....but a lot of drilling users share that taste.

This site might be of interest. Dispense with you preconceived notions of American firearms manufacture.

Dietrich Apel and the Foto Gallerie Suhl Waffenkunst or Gunmaker’s Poster Project – German Hunting Guns
Man when Vic comes back he brings his A game! :)
 
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