The Firearms Forum banner

1 - 18 of 18 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I recently purchased a Simson drilling. From reading this and another site I believe it was made in Nov of 1919. It is 16 gauge and the rifle is 9.3 x 72, (I think). It appears to be in pretty good shape. I don't know what model it would have been but the above information is just a guess. The inside of the barrels appear to be excellent. It does have nitro proofs on the shotgun barrels. I am hoping for a Diamond in the ruff here. It does have a scratch on the left rear stock but only appears to be the finish, hard to see in the pics. The checkering on the front stock is very thin on one side, a couple of screws have sharp spots on them. The rifle barrel has a dent but it doesn't appear to be inside. A couple of small dings on the top rail and a few linear dents on the front stock. If I were to guess I think the action was reblued but not sure. I didn't measure the length of the barrels when I posted this and didn't have it available. I would like to know if there is a model to this gun, the quality it represents for the era and and if someone has some thought as it value. Thanks for any help. left side scroll work stag.JPG left side scroll work.JPG left side stock scratch.JPG more proof marks.JPG pop up sight for rifle.JPG right side front stock.JPG right side hammer.jpg serial number.JPG top of barrels.JPG underside dent on rifle barrel.JPG
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,001 Posts
It is an older Drilling with back action locks and exposed hammers. It has been reblued. If the barrels were "hot blued" they may be ruined. The bluing salts will chemically disolve the soft solder they were assembled with. Remove the barrels from the receiver and hang them from one finger, then strike them lightly with a plastic screwdriver handle. They should ring like a bell if they rattle, vibrate, or sound dull they are loose and starting to come apart. Sometimes the ejector or sight parts will give a false rattle but you can tell if there is a ring.

With the forend removed the barrels should be very tight to the receiver with zero wiggle. If the move they are what is called off face. This too will lower the value.

It also appears to be restocked with an original forend. The stock would have been checkered like the forend. The inside if the wood at the front is fragile and often broken resulting in a restocking.

These guns while very interesting tend to be a tough sell. They will sell easily when the price drops to a reasonable number but most folks think they are worth twice what they will sell for. Even the newer ones with box locks are hard to move. My local shop has had some fantastic drillings and when placed online for sale they would get all kinds of comments and information from the drilling collectors stating how wonderful a gun it was but never an offer to buy.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
It is an older Drilling with back action locks and exposed hammers. It has been reblued. If the barrels were "hot blued" they may be ruined. The bluing salts will chemically disolve the soft solder they were assembled with. Remove the barrels from the receiver and hang them from one finger, then strike them lightly with a plastic screwdriver handle. They should ring like a bell if they rattle, vibrate, or sound dull they are loose and starting to come apart. Sometimes the ejector or sight parts will give a false rattle but you can tell if there is a ring.

With the forend removed the barrels should be very tight to the receiver with zero wiggle. If the move they are what is called off face. This too will lower the value.

It also appears to be restocked with an original forend. The stock would have been checkered like the forend. The inside if the wood at the front is fragile and often broken resulting in a restocking.

These guns while very interesting tend to be a tough sell. They will sell easily when the price drops to a reasonable number but most folks think they are worth twice what they will sell for. Even the newer ones with box locks are hard to move. My local shop has had some fantastic drillings and when placed online for sale they would get all kinds of comments and information from the drilling collectors stating how wonderful a gun it was but never an offer to buy.
Thank you for the reply. The barrels do ring when tapped with the screwdriver and they are tight when the fore stock is taken off. Is there a Model number for this gun?
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,001 Posts
They usually do not have a model number. Many are not even maker marked. Yours is quite typical gun like this. Some get very fancy. I just noticed a repair to the left side of the forend wood.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
13,029 Posts
I mostly agree with Old Guns and I too I believe the fore end is original and the butt stock has been replaced. Typically the checkering on the fore end is very worn, often nearly completely off while the checkering at the grip is frequently in quite good nick. I have two in such condition The profile of the pistol grip is entirely wrong for a drilling from that era and is devoid of any signs of having ever been checkered from what I can see in the picture.

I can't make out the proofs nor am I smart enough to know how to enlarge them. If there is a "118/35" on the rifle barrel it is most likely the 9.3 X 72R but, there was 4 different cartridges carrying that description. Three are very similar in that they are straight taper cases but, usually not quite interchangeable. The 4th is a bottleneck Sauer & Sohn cartridge case and not interchangeable with the other three. Only way to know is cast the chamber and if you're smart do it before you buy ammo. If the word "Nitro" is in block letters it was proofed in Suhl, if in script, Zella-Mehlis.

Old Guns is right, there is no model name or number. It is a drilling....period. Unfortunately it has been re-blued, you're both correct.

For the era, for a drilling, I would call your guns' quality typical. Keep in mind that the "typical" drilling was a very finely made hunting gun so that isn't to call it run of the mill in the overall scheme of things. Simpson was a long time player in the firearms industry but whether they actually made yours is open to question. Many were sourced "for the trade" from Suhl and Zella-Mehlis with the retailers name on the rib.

Sadly, no sir, it is not a "diamond in the rough". As a using drilling it's excellent but there has been too much done to it for it to have any more than utilitarian value. I have a few drillings and am always on the lookout for another. One such as yours it seems to me $1000 would be absolute tops from anyone who knows what he's looking at. One sees a lot more asked for them but as Old Guns described, they usually languish on a rack or gun auction site. It's a pretty small market one is playing to. Those of us who like them, love them but, as with all collectors of anything, we want them original.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
40,817 Posts
I can't make out the proofs nor am I smart enough to know how to enlarge them.
Sharps, I might be able to help you enlarge that picture. This works on my computer - select the picture you want to enlarge, you will see the two icons in the upper right corner. One is an "X" in the corner and to the left of it is an arrow in a "box". Click on that arrow and another tab will appear with only that picture in it, click on that and it should enlarge enough to see the marks.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
13,029 Posts
Well I'll be dipped in spit!!!! Worked like a champ!! Thanks George!!! Now you'll have me going back through piles of pictures to look closer at them...lol!

I saw on the left shotgun barrel the "crown over W" stamp for a choked barrel, degree of choke never given but probably tight. There is no picture of the right barrel proofs. The chambers of the shotguns were originally 2 1/2 in. unless they've been lengthened. Only way to know is measure them and, the 8,7 over 72 is for the 9.3 X 72R but which one, who knows. From that era the bore/groove is also probably tight and one might be able to use .357-.358 bullets for handloading....seen it a lot in those old drillings, combination guns and stalking rifles.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
40,817 Posts
It won't work on all pictures, it is according how big they are when actually uploaded.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
interesting, and greetings, I am currently working in Germany and also have a Simson Suhl Drilling. and though not an expert on firearms I have done a bit of research on the Simson Suhl and to my knowledge the company was originally Jewish owned but then taken over by the Nazis until the end of the war when Suhl was then part of East Germany and run by the Russians. There are no model numbers as most were hand made. Mine has internal hammers is 12 over 7x65R and has German claw scope mounts. I'll try to get pics in the next couple of days. I hunt with it and have actually shot a German Hare at 100 meters with the .22 mag insert. they are great guns. German laws are a bit strict about building and marking of firearms as well as importation. if you could post pics of the frame plate, and repost pics of the underbarrels I can look up the markings and compare them to mine and possibly get more info if you wish. (it will also give me one more reason to go to Suhl lol)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
I mostly agree with Old Guns and I too I believe the fore end is original and the butt stock has been replaced. Typically the checkering on the fore end is very worn, often nearly completely off while the checkering at the grip is frequently in quite good nick. I have two in such condition The profile of the pistol grip is entirely wrong for a drilling from that era and is devoid of any signs of having ever been checkered from what I can see in the picture.

I can't make out the proofs nor am I smart enough to know how to enlarge them. If there is a "118/35" on the rifle barrel it is most likely the 9.3 X 72R but, there was 4 different cartridges carrying that description. Three are very similar in that they are straight taper cases but, usually not quite interchangeable. The 4th is a bottleneck Sauer & Sohn cartridge case and not interchangeable with the other three. Only way to know is cast the chamber and if you're smart do it before you buy ammo. If the word "Nitro" is in block letters it was proofed in Suhl, if in script, Zella-Mehlis.

Old Guns is right, there is no model name or number. It is a drilling....period. Unfortunately it has been re-blued, you're both correct.

For the era, for a drilling, I would call your guns' quality typical. Keep in mind that the "typical" drilling was a very finely made hunting gun so that isn't to call it run of the mill in the overall scheme of things. Simpson was a long time player in the firearms industry but whether they actually made yours is open to question. Many were sourced "for the trade" from Suhl and Zella-Mehlis with the retailers name on the rib.

Sadly, no sir, it is not a "diamond in the rough". As a using drilling it's excellent but there has been too much done to it for it to have any more than utilitarian value. I have a few drillings and am always on the lookout for another. One such as yours it seems to me $1000 would be absolute tops from anyone who knows what he's looking at. One sees a lot more asked for them but as Old Guns described, they usually languish on a rack or gun auction site. It's a pretty small market one is playing to. Those of us who like them, love them but, as with all collectors of anything, we want them original.
Thank you for the reply. Its all great information. What I like most is the history about them. I have some old guns but coming from Germany so long ago it has some special meaning for me. Don
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
13,029 Posts
FC1 is correct about Simson. A little further info; after the Soviet takeover of East Germany many of the smaller firms in Suhl/Zella-Mehlis were put under the umbrella of Simson.

FC1, is your einstecklauf in 22 Mag. full length or one of the shorty's Sempert-Krieghoff made? I have a S-K einstecklauf in my Thieme & Schlegelmilch drilling and have used it to take several squirrels at shorter ranges here in the Ozarks. The barrel is only 9 or 10 inches long and because of that I've never put it on paper beyond 50 yards. Minute of squirrel head accuracy pretty much falls off at about 35 yards.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
interesting, and greetings, I am currently working in Germany and also have a Simson Suhl Drilling. and though not an expert on firearms I have done a bit of research on the Simson Suhl and to my knowledge the company was originally Jewish owned but then taken over by the Nazis until the end of the war when Suhl was then part of East Germany and run by the Russians. There are no model numbers as most were hand made. Mine has internal hammers is 12 over 7x65R and has German claw scope mounts. I'll try to get pics in the next couple of days. I hunt with it and have actually shot a German Hare at 100 meters with the .22 mag insert. they are great guns. German laws are a bit strict about building and marking of firearms as well as importation. if you could post pics of the frame plate, and repost pics of the underbarrels I can look up the markings and compare them to mine and possibly get more info if you wish. (it will also give me one more reason to go to Suhl lol)
I don't think I can post anymore pics. I think there is a limit of 10. If you can give me an e-mail address and I will send them to you. If I am allowed to post more please let me know.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,056 Posts
I don't think I can post anymore pics. I think there is a limit of 10. If you can give me an e-mail address and I will send them to you. If I am allowed to post more please let me know.
10 is the limit for single post, if you need more put them on another post.
 
  • Like
Reactions: gdmoody

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
FC1 is correct about Simson. A little further info; after the Soviet takeover of East Germany many of the smaller firms in Suhl/Zella-Mehlis were put under the umbrella of Simson.

FC1, is your einstecklauf in 22 Mag. full length or one of the shorty's Sempert-Krieghoff made? I have a S-K einstecklauf in my Thieme & Schlegelmilch drilling and have used it to take several squirrels at shorter ranges here in the Ozarks. The barrel is only 9 or 10 inches long and because of that I've never put it on paper beyond 50 yards. Minute of squirrel head accuracy pretty much falls off at about 35 yards.
it is the shorter einstecklauf and it is interesting to sight those in , and I mean the chinese"interesting" aka "pain in the rear" lol
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
13,029 Posts
it is the shorter einstecklauf and it is interesting to sight those in , and I mean the chinese"interesting" aka "pain in the rear" lol
Yes they are!!! The doggone things adjust in an "X" rather than horizontal and vertical. I bought mine used and had to order both slide adjusters new from Kreighoff. It took about 30 rounds of 22LR to adjust mine. Shoot it, take out and adjust the slides, install, shoot, repeat. Evidently they do stay adjusted as that's been a few years ago and it's still on and they are repeatable. I had to remove mine once and was concerned until I put it back in and check fired it. It was still right on the money.

FC1, yours is much newer than Don's...as if you didn't already know that. The German proof law changed again in 1939, considerably after Don's was made and before yours was made. In addition the East German proof law was not identical to the 1939 proof law nor do I believe the actual marks were the same. Yours is clearly stamped 70mm chambers while Don's has the circled 16 indicating 65mm chambers. I have an Immanuel Meffert drilling from 1935 or '36 in 16 over 7 X 57 and it is very similar to yours. Unfortunately mine did not have its claw mount scope rings. Cool firearms and with the addition of an einstecklauf suitable for virtually any game a fella is likely to come up against.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
Yes they are!!! The doggone things adjust in an "X" rather than horizontal and vertical. I bought mine used and had to order both slide adjusters new from Kreighoff. It took about 30 rounds of 22LR to adjust mine. Shoot it, take out and adjust the slides, install, shoot, repeat. Evidently they do stay adjusted as that's been a few years ago and it's still on and they are repeatable. I had to remove mine once and was concerned until I put it back in and check fired it. It was still right on the money.

FC1, yours is much newer than Don's...as if you didn't already know that. The German proof law changed again in 1939, considerably after Don's was made and before yours was made. In addition the East German proof law was not identical to the 1939 proof law nor do I believe the actual marks were the same. Yours is clearly stamped 70mm chambers while Don's has the circled 16 indicating 65mm chambers. I have an Immanuel Meffert drilling from 1935 or '36 in 16 over 7 X 57 and it is very similar to yours. Unfortunately mine did not have its claw mount scope rings. Cool firearms and with the addition of an einstecklauf suitable for virtually any game a fella is likely to come up against.
if anyone was curious I used sidewalk chalk to make the stampings stand out better ;)
 
1 - 18 of 18 Posts
Top