The Firearms Forum banner

Single Shot WWII German? Pistol

12K views 22 replies 6 participants last post by  Shawtz 
#1 ·
My grandfather brought this gun home from WWII. He recently passed away and we found it among his belongings and know nothing about it. The reloading mechanism is simply to remove the barrel and place another round at the base of the barrel and then reattach the barrel.

The proof marks on it make us think that it is German, (I found similar proofs online, but none which are identical to it), but its only a guess.

Can anyone tell us who made it, maybe an estimate of when it was made? Or, more interestingly, what would it have been used for? It seems too small to be much use for anything...

Thank you.

Gun Revolver Trigger Brass Metal
Revolver Brass Metal
Tool Revolver Trigger Metal Antique tool
 
See less See more
3
#2 ·
It's a Flobert parlor pistol, these were designed for indoor target shooting, the cartridges don't contain any powder they just use the priming compound to propel a BB downrange.

I've never seen a screw barrel Flobert though, so yours is a little unusual.

I'm not up to speed on German proof marks but there are a few members that are familiar with them and can help you out with a better estimate of age and value.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dan Hendricks
#3 ·
The crown U is German, but I would place the date of manufacture closer to WW I than WWII. There are any number of ways your grandfather could have gained possession of it. He could have looted it, won it in a poker game or picked it out of a pile of confiscated fire arms that were about to be destroyed. All three were common methods. It is, as stated a small " pinking pistol " used for informal target practice in confined spaces such as the parlor, a bar or even the garden. It uses what is today called CB caps or shells. as Grizzley1 posted they contain no powder, the small ball or projectile is propelled by the charge of the primmer alone. No not attempt to use regular 22 shorts in it. in fact I would advise not shooting it at all. Value of these type of firearms is low, I would think as a curiosity , south of a hundred dollars, they cost less than 2 dollars when new. As a heirloom, priceless. One of our contributors, hrf, may even have a catalog picture of it.
 
#5 · (Edited)
It looks like a Scheintod pistol, sold in Germany as non-lethal deterant weapons using 12mm (.45) centerfire shells producing a blinding light or loaded with tear gas or pepper spray.

But if those tiny cartridges(?) came with it, maybe it has a smaller diameter sleeve in it:
Can you add photos of breech and muzzle ends of barrel?

1911 German catalog:

Organ Organism Illustration Revolver Fictional character
 
#7 · (Edited)
I think it's a 12mm scheintod with a smaller sleeve that may be removable:
Try tapping on end of removed barrel with a mallet or block of wood.
And those may be 4mm caps, smaller than .22s.

Edit:
Knew I'd seen that strange cartridge before (scroll down to 6th pic and description):
http://www.oldammo.com/november03.htm
There was a 4mm rimfire also, but this is centerfire, hence the lack of a regular rim.
 
#11 · (Edited)
Not that particular handgun is a parlor gun, the link to the one I posted. I don't know enough about the original handgun posted to say anything, except for the one crown over U proof mark. That's a pretty clever insert for the PPk!

I do know the Zimmerstutzen rifles frustrate me frequently. I'm in the market for a Scheutzen rifle and every time I see a Zimmerstutzen rifle posted for sale I become unnecessarily excited....lol!
 
#12 ·
Thank you so much everyone who has commented on here. This was pretty awesome.

hrf, thank you especially. Finding the original advertisement is a really neat piece of history that I never would have found. Also, I never would have guessed that the smaller sleeve was removable. I just thought the two pieces were press fit together to alleviate the stresses which come from firing a gun.

I was able to get the smaller sleeve out of the original barrel with the help of some WD-40, and I measured the original barrel and it does measure 12 mm across.

I don't suppose they still make any of these "flash" or "pepper spray" cartridges any more do they? Although I'm not sure I want to fire this because without the smaller insert in the barrel, the original barrel is pretty loose...

Revolver Auto part Automotive engine part Metal


Thanks again for your help. It's really neat to see some of the history of this unique gun.
 
#13 ·
If you could even find any cartridges I suspect the barrel would tighten up considerably when loaded. Not that I would fire or recommend firing it, just that once a cartridge is loaded and the barrel installed the head of the case against the frame should tighten it up.
 
#14 ·
The scheintod/scheintot shells were controversial even in 1911, as the page listing them states: "For countries prohibiting import of loaded scheintot cartridges, we deliver the shells and chemical filling separately."

The 4mm insert was probably made privately, as it appears to be just a press fit with no rim.

The grip is a replacement, and plexiglass grips are often found on GI bringbacks, sometimes with a photo underneath.
 
#17 ·
Shawtz, from the pictures shown and information given I can definitely state it is some type of barrel with German proofs. How about some pictures of the whole gun and more information, and also it would be best if you started a new thread.:) Welcome to the forum and looking forward to being able to help you. Ahh, I see from your second post you may have already posted more pictures.
 
#19 ·
Well, for starters it is a Warnant design pistol; with German proof marks proof and probably made in Germany . A Warnant design uses that small swing over breech block to contain the pressure of a low power cartridge. I can't tell the caliber, perhaps .22 but the chamber looks big in the photo but perhaps that's just my perception. It is designed for a special low power cartridge. These types of guns were used for indoor pinking and in larger calibers as a " garden gun" for birds". I would guess the manufacture date would be in the 1920-1830;s. Value? these type guns i not high value guns, they were made to be inexpensive little shooters ( about a. 1.65 $ back then ) and I have seen them sell recently for less than 60 dollars in good condition. Best I can do, Hope that helps, perhaps others have more input:)
 
#21 · (Edited)
Well, for starters it is a Warnant design pistol; with German proof marks proof and probably made in Germany . A Warnant design uses that small swing over breech block to contain the pressure of a low power cartridge.
I think the type shown was just a minor refinement of Flobert's design, that had no breechblock at all and used only a heavy hammer to contain the cartridge and fire the round:

http://www.littlegun.info/arme%20francaise/artisans%20e%20f%20g%20h%20i%20j/a%20flobert%20gb.htm

Warnant's design was more elaborate and used a hinged breechblock that pivots upward:

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20t%20w/a%20warnant%20creon%20julien%20gb.htm

Neither type are safe with anything but BB Caps. Some of the Warnants were chambered for .22 Shorts and Longs, and often have the hinge arms broken at screw holes from use of current ammo.
 
#20 ·
Your little pistol is post the 1891-93 German proof law and pre-1939 proof law. I believe it is earlier than the 20's or 30's as in the post 1912-13 German proof law there should be other marks on it if made after that date. Other than the difference of opinion in the date I agree completely with Rjay. Mine is just one mans opinion.

The first crown, on the left in the picture, was required for pistols up to the 1939 proof law, then dropped, and the crown over U is the final proof.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Shawtz
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top