Someone please tell me again... ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 )

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by ruffitt, Mar 11, 2003.

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  1. ruffitt

    ruffitt Guest

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    bondai
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    Would someone please tell me again how Islam is a religion of peace... Let's see..Pilgrims going to Mecca to pray to Allah kill their own aviation minister because of flight delays. I think there are only one or two operational aircraft in the country.

    How many years are we going to be mired in this ass backwards stoneaged country. How many billions of dollars are we going to spend trying to help people who have no desire to help themselves. How many US troops will be killed trying to deal with the ever present tribal battles that are sure to escalte as the country sinks deeper into chaos.
    What a mess....

    apnews.excite.com/article/20020215/D7HMGLC00.html


    Edited by: bondai at: 2/15/02 10:48:07 am

    LIKTOSHOOT
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    If we can save, just one.............................

    Tac401
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    Cause Da Mind Is A Terrible Thang.............
    The Firearms Forum Vietnam Memories Bulletin Board Contact Administrator

    Different name
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    If the law is upheld only by government officials then all law is at an end...

    The foundatiions of civilization are no stronger and no more enduring than the corporate integrity of the homes on which they rest. If the home deteriorates, civilization will crumble and fall.

    Charlie D
    The victor belongs to the spoils...

    Jackson
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    (2/15/02 10:23:56 pm)
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    Linkshot, I am sure you said that with tongue in cheek, but I don't find that funny one bit. This is serious matter and for my money I would close our borders give those beggars 72 hours to get there ass out of the U.S.

    LIKTOSHOOT
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    (2/15/02 10:47:23 pm)
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    No, it was not said cheek in tongue. I was dead serious. All life is precious.....even if drastic action is needed to provide it. I`m sick of expendable society and the rouge that some claim is for the better of "this" country. LTS

    Jackson
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    (2/16/02 2:29:00 am)
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    Ok linkshot If I read you right, then I am with you.

    warpig883
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    (2/16/02 8:28:30 am)
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    LTS you intrigue me. Tell more of your opinion. Are you saying it is worth it to have 10 of our troops die to save one person's life in another country?






    Presently I stand with Jackson, close the borders and bring ALL the troops home. Foriegn policy whould be cut down to almost nothing and foriegn aid should be outlawed.

    Take care of the people at home first.
    We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans... -- Bill Clinton, US President (USA Today, 11 Mar 1993, page 2a)

    BlackGun
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    (2/16/02 9:28:04 am)
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    Linkshot, LikemToShoot! ! Ya'll are killing me!
    Ya'll don't forget, we, the U.S of A is the most powerful nation on the face of the earth. We are the police and big brother to all the world, even though hated for our freedom. When terror hit our homeland on 9/11, we had to show force. Now we're committed. We can't walk away now! Look at Viet Nam! I was there! We walked away! faced defeat. Not this time! The world is watching! If we kick some serious A**, they will think twice about Mucking with us again!
    Tread On Me, But, Leave My DONUT Alone! !


    BlackGUN

    Edited by: BlackGun at: 2/16/02 2:16:02 pm

    LIKTOSHOOT
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    (2/16/02 9:57:18 am)
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    Ok, you namby-pamby isolationist, explain to me how closing the boarders and hiding solves anything. I guess some don`t believe in the free market place.....sorry, I do! Some have little faith in people as a whole, yes there are countries that feel human life is nothing but numbers....at some point, that to will change; when they`ve "really" had enough. Maybe not in my lifetime, but it will happen. You see, we (USA) set the standards for all to see, it is a sweet taste of freedom. Though many claim otherwise, you don`t see them fighting to get in China, Russia and most of the European countries. People will risk everything to get into the USA. Call it bad, stealing jobs....whatever you wish, but the fact remains, we all did it. That is how this country was formed. In general, our country proves that people of different races, colors and beliefs can live together. Is this worth sacraficing life for, seems we have done so in the past and we will continue to do so in the future. What would you be willing to give up for freedom? LTS

    LIKTOSHOOT
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    you found the bait.....

    LTS lalalalala

    Different name
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    (2/16/02 2:42:33 pm)
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    Rite on -- LTS & TLynn....

    Great occasions (terrorism) do not make heroes or cowards, they simple unveil them to the eye of man. Silently and imperceptibly we grow strong or weak, and at last some crisis shows us what we have become....

    What do you think?
    Is it a case of:
    "All signposts and no destinations?"

    Charlie D

    Jackson
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    (2/16/02 3:30:44 pm)
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    LTS No I do not agree with you at all. I will be up front and repeat that the United States should close the boarders, do away with the H1B Visa Program. Those "Middle East" persons who are NOT U.S. Citizens give them free passage back to the black holes they came from.

    It is about time we stood up and said "I am mad as hell and I am not going to take any more."

    LIKTOSHOOT
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    (2/16/02 3:40:00 pm)
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    Just Middle Eastern people, or is that just for now. Who should be next???

    BlackGun
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    (2/16/02 4:16:46 pm)
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    OUCH!
    Tread On Me, But, Leave My DONUT Alone! !


    BlackGUN

    bondai
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    (2/16/02 4:37:18 pm)
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    www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/2/15/194300.shtml


    The borders of this Nation need to be closed immediately and remain closed until such time that every illegal in the country is rounded up and deported. No amnesty, no favors. If you are here illegally, you need to go home. Race and religion have nothing to do with it. After we have been able to rid ourselves of illegals then we can implement a reasonable immigration policy with strict limitations placed on how many people can come to this country every year.

    I know the open door folks will be screaming but quotas must be placed on immigration based on geographic area. If you cannot speak English then you will not be admitted.You will not be admitted if we cannot verify your background. If you are single and pregnant you will not be admitted.

    We are becoming diluted as a nation. We are losing our national identity and the reason is uncontrolled immigration. It has nothing to do with racism or hatred of one religion. It is a matter of survival. Immigrants need time to be assimilated into OUR culture, not the other way around.

    I for one am tired of supporting illegals who have more rights than I do. If we don't close the doors it is going to be too late.


    warpig883
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    (2/16/02 5:06:41 pm)
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    You hit it on the head Bondai. I am not against legal immigration. I feel that there should be some contols put in place and they should be enforced.

    For our country to thrive or even exist in some kind of state of normalcy we need citizens. Rampant migrations of illegal aliens does not produce citizens.


    And I still think we should not have armed forces over seas. We should do our punishing of the guilty ones for 9/11 and bring them home.

    We should not be supporting or providing massive amounts of aid to any of these countries. The majority of them just take the money and crap on us in return.
    We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans... -- Bill Clinton, US President (USA Today, 11 Mar 1993, page 2a)

    BlackGun
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    (2/16/02 5:34:05 pm)
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    I really don't like this thread, but, some of this reallity hits home! I don't believe in outer racial marriages, breeding, Black/White Asian/White, (I consider Afganistan,Pakastain part of the Europian Asian culture) you get the drift of where I'm comming from, because this gets messy, It's gotten to the point where you can't tell a white from Black due through outter race breeding. At the end of time, it says you won't be able to tell one race from the other, and if we keep letting every Ali bubba into this country illigally, we will have no control of nothing! See, My ex-wife was abused by an Arab and I have no use for their culture and the way they treat women. They do it here in the states as they do it in their country! If you have a contact with a female who is wed or attached to a Euripean/Asian they are oppressed. I'm redneck white and oppressed by meantome and like it. and that's the way it'll stay.
    Tread On Me, But, Leave My DONUT Alone! !


    BlackGUN

    TallTLynn
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    (2/16/02 5:51:28 pm)
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    Well BlackGun guess you wouldn't like most of my family then. I'll defend your right to be that way but I'll never agree with it.

    From an Irish/Arab

    BlackGun
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    (2/16/02 6:05:40 pm)
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    Sorry T, I would never intentionally hurt or offend you and your rights to freedom of choice, I have personal convictions against it, call it Texas hard core hell fire and brimstone baptist breeding, we were taught from pup's that it was wrong!. Hey, every one to their own choice of life style,! I disownerd a step dauhter that loved me dearly, because she chose a black convict over her own 3 year old daughter and husband, which I now support (granddaughter thaty is)! This girl (step daughter could have been a model, Congresswoman or what ever she opted, but now she can't even hold a job to support her .................................man! I call it being disfunctinal! What does a person tell their kids when they ask what their heritage is! " DUH I'm Black Afganistan with a tad of white, Not here, not now, not ever in this house hold!
    Tread On Me, But, Leave My DONUT Alone! !


    BlackGUN

    Edited by: BlackGun at: 2/16/02 6:09:49 pm

    LIKTOSHOOT
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    (2/16/02 6:13:25 pm)
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    Stink bait, my all time favorite. See T (made a funny) first it was chummin...then baiting......then fishing, next is that power hook set. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzing! (thats the drag ripping out, I`m known for anchoring that hook)

    lalalalallalalallalalallalalallala











    toot-sweet!

    TallTLynn
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    (2/16/02 6:16:59 pm)
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    I don't choose a life style Blackgun, I'm merely a product of one. As are some of my relatives who are black, japanese and mexican.

    Both my mother and father are classifed as caucasian but then are so are many people of arab descent.

    I have no problem with those who believe in purity but I also no for a fact few of European descent are pure in anything - especially blood lines.

    On the other hand I also understand your problem with your stepdaughter. No one should desert their child (or husband/wife) for another person. Unfortunately, I also know that some people no matter how they were raised are somewhat irresponsible (as I was to a degree in my youth).

    LIKTOSHOOT
    *TFF Senior Staff*
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    (2/16/02 6:27:06 pm)
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    Done fishing here, time to bait another hole......


    see-ya at the next one....ya`ll keep biting, hear?




    toot-sweet!

    shooter22
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    (2/16/02 6:45:52 pm)
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    LTS practicing "catch and release"


    warpig883
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    (2/16/02 7:10:29 pm)
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    He must have been over his limit
    We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans... -- Bill Clinton, US President (USA Today, 11 Mar 1993, page 2a)

    rayra
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    (2/16/02 7:25:01 pm)
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    wow. blackgun. you is rascist, son. you even point out that it was 'pounded' into you. why not take the next step, and recognize it's within your own psyche / power to shrug off some of those prejudices??

    and Jackson (et al) when the hell has Isolationism done this country (or any other for that matter) ANY good?

    Agreed, we need to hunt down all those who have overstayed their visas, or entered this country illegally and process their asses, REGARDLESS of their color, nation of origin, religion, whatever. If they are a productive, contributing member of the American society, and aren't a member of groups with stated opposition to the USA, maybe we let them stay and get legit. The rest, throw them out.

    As for Isolationism. F*** that. I say it's about time the USA really dons the mantle of Supremacy in this World, and REALLY starts swinging our weight around. Crush those that oppose us. Play ball, or wither on the vine. Time to stop coddling countries that crap on us, time to stop playing with China, time to reward our friends and punish our enemies. We've done some of that already, and I hope we continue. Saudi Arabia doesn't wand our troops? Fine. Strike a deal with Russia / Uzbhekistan, re-deploy our theatre forces their - KEEP menacing Iraq, but leave those that don't appreciate us exposed to him. Wake those stupid countries up. And when Saddam sticks his neck out again in aggression against his neighbors, CHOP IT.

    We've already demonstrated our ability to effect a radical shift in government on a foreign country. I say we KEEP setting them up and knocking them down, until terrorism is dead. Until fanatical anti-americanism is dead. Until millions of innocents STOP dying for being of the wrong TRIBE or RELIGION or COLOR. Line up every petty dictatorship, every political thug, every fascist leader / country, and KNOCK THEM DOWN.
    Tired of waiting for Fidel to die.
    Tired of waiting for Saddam to die.
    Tired of waiting for Pot to die.
    Tired of waiting for every other blood-drenched 'tribal elder' in sub-saharan africa to die.
    Let's kill them and get it over with.



    Edited by: AntiqueDr at: 2/16/02 7:38:27 pm

    Mesen
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    quit using gasoline and other petroleum products then let the OPEC types starve
    IF YOU VALUE YOUR FREEDOM, THANK A VET!

    AntiqueDr
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    And replace them with what? US colonies?
    We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
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    BlackGun
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    (2/16/02 7:48:01 pm)
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    I ain't racist Raya! I hate everybody! See why I don't like being baited into these threads and LTS runs off and leaves me to be the Biggit! OH well, if you love then folks at 7/11 spend all your money there, so they can buy all the AK-47's they want to shoot your family and mine and take flying lessons. In America, speak English! I don't want to go into a store and have to ask 50 times what the Muck they said! Nuff said. Pick on someone else! I'm off to press my blacks, I don't wear white with KKK on them!
    Tread On Me, But, Leave My DONUT Alone! !


    BlackGUN

    bondai
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    (2/16/02 7:51:03 pm)
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    "On the other hand this country was theoretically founded on freedoms and we have been considered the melting pot of the world. I see you do not favor the mixing of races (which is your right). But I fail to understand how you feel we are being diluted - we've always been this way."

    T, you misunderstood what I meant by "diluted" I was not referring to the dilution of race. I was speaking of the dilution of our national identity.

    Many Americans are living with the illusion that all illegal immigrants want to be American citizens. The facts however do not support that belief. The reality is that most illegals have no desire what so ever to become citizens. They are here to suck what they can from the system, live on the fringe of society with no civil responsibility. They owe no allegiance to the US, nor to their country of origin. If they did they would be living there instead of here.

    They are parasites, no more. You will hear the open border crowd yelling "they give so much to our culture" to that I say,"bullshit" they give nothing. When the final tally is made what they contribute is a net loss. The facts and figures are available. You won't see them reported by the socialist media.

    Illegals are a drain on the economy, period. They suck up social services at an astronomical rate and give nothing in return except crime and more illegal babies being pumped out on an assembly line.

    I live in Arizona, I know what I am talking about.I see it everyday. The crime is becoming rampant here. The socialists and the Democrats(one in the same) want them here so they can get them registered to vote, think I'm joking..check it out yourself. Illegals vote all over this country...don't doubt it for a minute. Guess who's behind it ? The democrats/liberals/socialists. They know that these people are ignorant for the most part and will believe anything you tell them.

    I'm sick of paying outrageous taxes to support these worthless cockroaches of humanity. I am sick of my son having to attend class with illegals who can't read or write English, the teacher spends so much time with them that the other students are not getting a decent education. I'm sick of watching them transform the south side of Phoenix into what looks like a border town. I'm sick of having to have my vehicles emission tested and then see 6 illegals drive by in an old POS car belching smoke and the cops do nothing.

    This isn't about race or religion. I hate illegals. I hate what they are doing to my country. But with all the disgust that I feel towards these people I hate the politicians who allow it to continue even more. They should all be rounded up like the vermin they are and deported, starting with the biggest bunch of cockroaches...the elected one's in Washington.



    Mesen
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    (2/16/02 8:35:38 pm)
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    Bondai
    Are you Native American? If not at what point was it that your ancestors become US citizens?
    "I'm sorry,Abdulah,Juan,Sven(pick a name-any nationality will do) you cannot dream the American dream because you are not from this country, do not believe in our God and your native tongue isn't English."
    Quite frankly I think you have a biased point of view .
    WHAT CRAP!


    AntiqueDr
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    (2/16/02 8:41:13 pm)
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    Mesen, I think you may have missed the point. I dont believe Bondai is against immigration, per se, but against ILLEGAL immigration, the illegal immigrants who are happy to leech off of the system, and the politicians who make it "acceptable."

    There is a difference.


    We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
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    bondai
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    (2/16/02 8:41:31 pm)
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    rayra...

    "Line up every petty dictatorship, every political thug, every fascist leader / country, and KNOCK THEM DOWN."

    Most of the evil we face as a nation comes from within our own borders. There is no other nation that would dare oppose us in an all out fight....they know it. They know that if we continue along our current path we will destroy ourselves. They don't have to beat us, just outlast us.




    rayra
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    (2/16/02 8:42:34 pm)
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    AntiqueDr, I'll settle for Puppet Regimes.


    AntiqueDr
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    (2/16/02 8:44:32 pm)
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    And who funds those puppet regimes, because they certainly wont be self-sustaining...


    We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
    www.apaxenterprises.com

    Mesen
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    Sure Doc.
    And like the saying goes..."everyone has one and they all stink!" (opinions that is)
    IF YOU VALUE YOUR FREEDOM, THANK A VET!

    AntiqueDr
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    (2/16/02 8:51:21 pm)
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    So you're saying there is no difference between legal immigration and illegal immigration, or are you saying that illegal immigration is OK?


    We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
    www.apaxenterprises.com

    Mesen
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    What we need to fix is the system that lets so many slip thru the cracks. You know they're right I'm not getting the govt. I'm paying for. If this were private enterprise it would have been abolished and another system installed.
    Closing the borders will not solve the problem only create a bigger one in the long run

    bree
    IF YOU VALUE YOUR FREEDOM, THANK A VET!

    bondai
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    (2/16/02 9:17:58 pm)
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    Mesen,
    Not exactly your tone...sounds more like Fred...but I'll give you a go.

    First of all the Native American subject should be separated from this thread because it has nothing to do with what we are talking about here. If you want to discuss the hardships of American Indians, start a thread. Oh, by the way I am a Native American...I was born here.

    My heritage is Irish. You will notice that I didn't say Irish American, you know why ? because I am an American first. I enjoy my Irish heritage..I even speak a little of the language.

    I have traced my family back to the 1300's, even have a web site....please feel free to check it out.

    www.sweeneyclan.com

    As usual you have missed the point. I am not against immigration, just illegal immigration. This country should allow QUALIFIED immigrants to enter and eventually become citizens. If you would have read my earlier post you would see that what is necessary is common sense immigration, not this helter skelter open door policy we currently have. It is destructive to this country and to all Americans.

    People should have to opportunity to come here and become Americans, but on our terms..not theirs. Illegals come here and DEMAND their rights, how dare they do that. What have they contributed to this nation? nothing. How many of them have shed blood for this country ? How many have lost son's and daughters to defend this nation ? NONE.

    If you come to my home, you knock on the door and ask permission to enter. While you are in my home you play by my rules and behave in a civilized manner. If you don't !..I am going to kick your ass to the curb. Same thing goes with immigration. I don't care who you are, what color you are, what religion you are. If you want to come here you follow our rules and behave yourself, then you are welcome..If not then get the hell out and don't come back. Don't come here telling me that you have rights..four generations of my family have offered up their son's in defense of this nation and I am not prepared to take advice from an illegal alien on the subject of rights.

    Bree, If this is Bree...and I don't think that it is. Once again you have called me a racist. I am growing weary of your verbal attacks. If you have an axe to grind, put it to the wheel and lets get it on. Personally..I think you are full of it.



    rayra
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    (2/16/02 9:25:37 pm)
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    Doc, a small infusion of cash for infrastructure like clean water, hospitals, agriculture, education - then let them run as they may. Wouldn't be any worse, would be a damn sight better.

    We can afford it, the US just needs to knock our own pork-barrel crap off. Imagine what a measly $50 Million would do in a shithole like Rwanda. Or Somalia. Or the Bakaa Valley.

    We crush opposition, slaughter the 'technicals' or any other bunch of idiots running around with rifles. WE become the jealous protector of centralized power in whatever country. And keep it that way.

    Let the average joe work and live in peace, raise his family in safety.



    Edited by: rayra at: 2/16/02 9:26:02 pm

    AntiqueDr
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    (2/16/02 9:34:42 pm)
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    Rayra,

    How do you propose to "keep it that way" without occupying the country with troops? Surely you are not suggesting garrisons of US troops?


    We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
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    shooter22
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    (2/16/02 10:02:08 pm)
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    Hey, I got an Idea, Let's all take a couple deep breaths and gather our thoughts. I don't think this is the atmosphere we are trying to portray to new members


    bondai
    *TFF Senior Staff*
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    (2/16/02 10:58:06 pm)
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    shooter, I'll respond again since a socialist decided my previous response was not appropriate according to his moral ruler...and deleted it...


    "Yea, let's not let the new members see any reality."

    Go ahead Swede, delete it again....

    I dare ya !
    I double dog dare ya !
    I tripple dog dare ya !

    Just what I thought, bad decision.



    Jackson
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    (2/16/02 11:06:36 pm)
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    Go get em "Black Gun" and "Bondi" I could not aggress more.
    Those who do not think those people are problems, take the time to watch two movies.
    "Not without my daughter" with Sally Fields. A true story
    "The Siege" with Denzel Washington.
    Another thing. I would bet many of you "love everybody" people are living in a utopia world. Well let me give you some first hand experience. For ten years I worked in Fremont, Calif.
    for a world known retailer.
    Fremont has the largest Afghan population in the U.S. East Indians, Pakistanis, Iran are the largest populations in Fremont, there are more "East Indian" movie houses in Fremont then in all of LA.
    These people are rude, nasty, and demanding who think that the U.S. owes them a living. They have driven the W.A.S. P. population out and those that remain may be quiet but the truth is they hate there guts.
    Sorry TallLynn, I do respect your opinion but I would will to be you have had little or no dealings with them.


    WyomingSwede
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 225
    (2/16/02 11:10:38 pm)
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    Things look different in the light of day.
    Wyoming Swede

    Edited by: WyomingSwede at: 2/17/02 2:05:27 pm

    bondai
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 1253
    (2/16/02 11:19:55 pm)
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    You arrogant a**. You delete me and then you give me your blessing ? You are confused. I hope you are not embarrassed.
    T put the target up, I only fired at it. I don't need your blessings.

    Free speech stifled again...


    Mesen
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 444
    (2/16/02 11:41:48 pm)
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    FIRST OFF MR. BONDAI...
    this is BREE not your OTHER favorite target Fred. Just because I have remained fairly quiet and played the mediator in many posts does not mean I do not have an attitude or an opinion. Would have loved to see the post that was deleted. you got my address,send it.
    As well I am also Native American. But in all fairness my ancestors came here looking for the American dream. ALL aliens to this country in some way do the same no matter how they get there.
    Why don't you figure out a way to fix the system that allows this to continue instead of cussing the problem?
    You seem to think you have all the answers.

    go ahead get riled.


    bree

    By the way a$$ and h*ll are cuss words. Watch your spelling this is a family forum you know.
    IF YOU VALUE YOUR FREEDOM, THANK A VET!

    Edited by: Mesen at: 2/17/02 2:15:55 pm

    bondai
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 1256
    (2/16/02 11:58:57 pm)
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    Bree,
    I don't want anything you have, including your membership. Are you guys still PO'd about the moderator thing ? As far as the Native American issue is concerned I am willing to discuss it with you if you can refrain from calling me a racist.

    As far as Fred is concerned he is not my favorite target, but his name is on the list. Tell him he is welcome to join in if he feels up to it, maybe tomorrow sometime after an eye opener.

    I am working on fixing some of the problems, I won't bore you with the details. As far as sending you anything via e-mail, I don't think so. The responses I received last time were not coherent and the last e-mail I sent you I didn't receive a response, perhaps you didn't receive it. I would be glad to post the e-mail I send to you, if you feel it is appropriate.

    Oh yea, I'm not riled. You have never seen me riled, nor do you want to.



    rayra
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 219
    (2/17/02 12:24:49 am)
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    AntiqueDr - Absolutely. A Battalion Here. A Regiment There. A Company of M1s or LAVs in support. And loose ROE. That would put 'PAID' to the troublemakers in short order.

    Rather have a short bitter struggle, than another Vietnam or Soviet Afghanistan, or any other form of protracted struggle.

    Particulary in countries with such piss-poor natural enviroments like Afghanistan - no countryside covered in rice-paddies. Nowhere to hide, nowhere to run.

    I say if we are going to be involved, then we should be getting involved with every bit of the MASSIVE resources we have at hand. Close the target country. Embargo / Interdict it completely, then SIFT it. Clear the thugs. Prop up a moderate / representative government. Teach the general population WTF a 'democratic society' is about. Purge the warlords and religious fanatics (whatever flavor). Improve the general quality of life. And watch Peace bloom. When the new National government is firmly in power, we pack our shit, leave the Pepsi, and GM, and MTV executives in-country, and move on to our next chore.


    An aggressive strategy is the only way. You watch - those Army pukes sitting on their ass at Bhagram are gonna take a kick in the teeth if the 'Peacekeeping' doesn't get a helluva lot more aggressive. They are getting 'probed' now as it is. You watch - there'll be a repeat of the 1983 Lebanon barracks truck-bombing, and the chest-beating / hair-pulling will begin, we'll withdraw, and we will have missed the best opportunity to improve things in Afghanistan that country has had in a Generation.


    AntiqueDr
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2058
    (2/17/02 12:33:38 am)
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    I do agree that if we are going to go in, we need to go in hard and do it right. No argument there.

    But how many countries can we afford to occupy? And for how long? Its only been two thousand years plus that these folks have been fighting each other...


    We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
    www.apaxenterprises.com

    Mesen
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 445
    (2/17/02 12:35:26 am)
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    Quite frankly I am still upset yes but that has not got anything to do with the subject at hand.
    As far as what I said, that's my opinion and until I see otherwise I will continue to think that way.
    As far as getting you riled I'm not too worried about that either. Only 2 people I'm am afraid of is my father and God. Neither of which is named bondai.
    I answered every email I rec'd from you. Not coherent? Guess my writing career is a no-go then. I'll go back to the crayons.
    I don't mind your opinions nor do I care what you think. But the thing I DO mind is you cramming them down everyone's throat and telling them to swallow.
    Regardless of what you think I still believe in the American dream and the premise of give us you poor....etc. Isn't that one of the foundations we were based on? I'll give you some time to ask Rush before you answer.
    bree

    IF YOU VALUE YOUR FREEDOM, THANK A VET!

    Edited by: Mesen at: 2/17/02 2:19:00 pm

    AntiqueDr
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2060
    (2/17/02 12:43:13 am)
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    Bree,

    That inscription is found on the base of the Statue of Liberty, and is a beacon for the entire world who wish to emigrate to this great country..... legally.

    I have traveled the entire Texas-Mexico border and I have yet to see that sign posted along the shallow parts.


    We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
    www.apaxenterprises.com

    rayra
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 220
    (2/17/02 1:07:31 am)
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    AntiqueDr, how many? I don't know. 6-10 easily.

    Remove Saddam, I don't think Iraq would be a problem, especially if Islamic fundamentalists / fanatics are kept out. Those poor people (Iraqies) are like Cubans (and the Spanish) were - just waiting for the Dictator to croak.

    Considering most of the world's trouble spots / nightly news of mass bloodshed comes from places were the chief Thug has only a few thousand trigger-pullers at their disposal, it would not take much if we just roll in and DO IT.

    As for the rest. Simple embargo. A time-honored technique. Block air traffic. Blockade seaports. And (unlike what we've been doing with Iraq) force them to take care of their people.

    Don't let ANY country sell them weapons. Bomb their munitions factories. Give them all the free food and agricultural support the people need. Hell, push a military column into their country, if necessary, to bring in food and medical relief. If the Thugs only want the Power, without the responsibility of caring for their People, then we cram it down their throats.




    bondai
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 1258
    (2/17/02 1:25:28 am)
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    Bree, Fred, who ever.

    I am finished engaging in a battle of wits with unarmed people.
    You are like a broken record, doomed to repeat itself..






    Mesen
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 446
    (2/17/02 8:15:55 am)
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    gonna find someone else to put on your list?

    I feel sorry for you cuz it must be lonley up there on that pedestal.


    BREE

    IF YOU VALUE YOUR FREEDOM, THANK A VET!

    Edited by: Mesen at: 2/17/02 2:27:22 pm

    Xracer
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 1669
    (2/17/02 10:16:25 am)
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    "You've got to be taught, before it's too late....

    before you are six, or seven, or eight...

    to hate all the people your relatives hate.

    You've got to be carefully taught."

    From "South Pacific" by Richard Rogers and Oscar Hammerstein II

    AntiqueDr
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2061
    (2/17/02 10:34:40 am)
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    I appreciate the concept, Rayra, but where does it end? As soon as you remove one leader, another tyrant is ready to step in. You can already see that Afghanistan was just trading one for another.

    The culture of the native people is not one that readily supports democracy. For millenia, they have been ruled by one tyrant or another, one warlord or another, one tribal chieftain or another. Sure, they want as much free food as they can get - doesn't mean they wont still crowd up in the street and burn the US flag.

    At some point, you just have to say: screw 'em.


    We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
    www.apaxenterprises.com

    hammer4nc
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 217
    (2/17/02 10:42:36 am)
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    WOW! What a wide-ranging discussion!

    The pin~atas are flying now! Re: Immigration. Control of illegal immigration is necessary, if we are going to avert the "Death of the West" scenario that Pat Buchanan writes about in his latest book. I don't think its going to happen, however, 'cause too many people are making too much money off it. ALSO, the socialist agenda (which is gaining in this country's govt.) NEEDS masses of dependents, as a voting block...who better than new immigrants. We won't even get into the "reconquista" debate, although that would be quite interesting in itself.

    Strict border controls are only a stopgap measure. Yet, I don't condemn this as "isolationist". Its the best one country can do, in the short term. Here's a thought: Did anyone ever wonder why Mexico, for example, with all the resources in that country, AND, the terrific work ethic possessed by its people, have such a sorry economy? While Mexico is not a communist country per se, its resources are controlled by a small cadre who are enormously wealthy, on the backs of the peasant class. A caste society, that limits economic opportunities for the average citizen. That's why they come here.

    Here's my solution for the immigration problem: President Bush FORCES (via economic offers he can't refuse) Mexican president Fox (he's a capitalist, former Coca Cola exec, IIRC) to initiate measures that promote free enterprise and entrepaneurship within Mexico. Mexico would thrive beyond anyone's wildest dreams...and our immigration problem would be solved. No occupying troops, no puppet govt., self sustaining economically.

    Similar template for other countries. Idealistic? Perhaps, for the ruling elite (shadow govts, clans, warlords) would have to be displaced. But, its the only possible solution I can offer. Anyone else?

    AntiqueDr
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2064
    (2/17/02 10:58:26 am)
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    Hammer,

    I like it. That a good carrot, now for the stick. Make life as an illegal alien ROUGH here in the US. Actively pursue them, root them out. When a cache of illegals is found dont just deport them and say "Try again." I'm sure there are some roads that need paving, etc... Three hots and a cot, that's the pay. Six months of that, then deportation.


    We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
    www.apaxenterprises.com

    Tac401
    Administrator
    Posts: 3618
    (2/17/02 11:07:28 am)
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    ezSupporter
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    "Personal attacks are not permited and will be deleted, state your comments in a civil manner. Regardless of wether
    it's a staff member or a regular member!"

    Those of you on staff here especially know this full well!

    This is a good discussion / debate but has no room for
    personal attacks by anyone or anywhere in our public
    forums!

    I have been monitoring this thread since it began and
    regardless of who started the first personal attack I
    expect all of those involved to edit out the personal
    attacks in your own posts ASAP or I will do it for you!

    You have until 3:00 P.M. TFF time!

    And don't delete your entire post and or replies either
    or you will piss me off and you don't want to do that!

    Let the thread continue, it's a very good discussion
    and heated is fine but leave the personal attacks
    out of it.

    Tac
    The Firearms Forum Vietnam Memories Bulletin Board Contact Administrator

    280freak
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 450
    (2/17/02 12:00:28 pm)
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    Tac -

    Well, I for one appreciate the way you are letting this thread run it's course. Would have been zapped at brand x by now, most likely. I haven't been participating in this thread because I don't feel that I have anything of value to add to it. I have been following it closely, however, and feel that I have learned from the experience. Thank you again for your tolerance here.


    bondai
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 1259
    (2/17/02 12:17:33 pm)
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    Bree,

    I didn't call you an "incoherent" idiot. I didn't even call you an Idiot. I said one of your emails was incoherent.

    Please read the post before going off the deep end. Thank you.



    Tac401
    Administrator
    Posts: 3621
    (2/17/02 12:22:22 pm)
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    No sweat Freaky, that's what it's all about!


    The Firearms Forum Vietnam Memories Bulletin Board Contact Administrator

    Mesen
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 448
    (2/17/02 2:13:33 pm)
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    No sweat bondai...you win again.

    Bree
    I got my mess cleaned up. Looks generic now.
    IF YOU VALUE YOUR FREEDOM, THANK A VET!

    Edited by: Mesen at: 2/17/02 2:32:18 pm

    warpig883
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 2462
    (2/17/02 2:53:37 pm)
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    Feel the LOVE

    I am glad I stayed out of this one. However I do still have an opinion.

    If the borders should not be closed and there should be no controls on immigration then we are doomed.

    I am still 100% against illegal immigration. I do like the idea of putting them to work when caught, but I bet the system would screw that up also.

    I do not think we should be supporting or protecting othere countries. Leave them to their fate.

    I could care less what in the heck Iraq does. The last thing I want to see is troops moving in there.

    We should be protecting ourselves and taking care of our LEGAL CITIZENS at all costs.

    I have been told I am racist, maybe I am and maybe I am not. I do think I am no more racist than ANY of the minority groups who are always screaming racism.

    I will say this
    If certain behaviors or actions make me dislike a person or a whole group of people who are doing things I find vile and disgusting then I guess I am a racist because I dislike them for who they are and how they act.

    We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans... -- Bill Clinton, US President (USA Today, 11 Mar 1993, page 2a)

    rayra
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 221
    (2/17/02 4:52:46 pm)
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    AntiqueDr - I appreciate the issue of trading one thug for another, and the fact that most of these benighted countries don't have a clue...
    Just picture a massive concerted effort - a strong force moves in, locks down the place, cleans out the bad guys and weapons surplus, stands up a government. Then you provide a massive sustained infusion of education and infrastructure. You have to drag an entire culture to its feet.

    Just like the history of civilization, advances could not come until a good portion of their populations weren't living hand-to-mouth. Take a hard-scrabble enviroment, layer on a dose of religious fanaticism - which in most places is merely a veneer that allows Thugs to assume power over weaker (minded) people - and you have the cesspits of the World.

    An also True, the history of Civilization is also rife with populations that just don't make it. Easy to say, 'let them rot'. But I say, 'Why'? We (the USA) have the means, the ability to effect a massive improvement on the quality of life in the World. I think we should exercise that power. The USA is no heaven, and has a ton of problems of it's own, but compare it to 50% of the planet - we have a massively higher level of living, health, education, earnings, technical capabilities, ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

    The only problem with my Grandiose theories is one of sustainability. Time and again in the last 35-40 years, we've gone in, spread a few 90-lb bags of wheat around, made some inoculations, and done nothing more.
    If only there was some way to steer this country (and the Industrialized West, for that matter) onto the 'real' path of global leadership.

    Back to the Cesspits -
    The problem with whole generations of Fanatics is that they are blocked from learning anything other than their ruler's (be it Clan, tribe, or State) party line. Nothing more. A human baby is not 'evil', regardless of their place of birth or anointed religion. It is only through cultural influences, or the focused hate-speech of madrasas (or 'White Power' camps) that Hate is cultivated. I've said it elsewhere - the quickest route to power for any Thug is the tried-and-true methof of Fascists - point to something / someone / anyone, and shout, "They are the ENEMY!".
    Hate, and Fear are the easiest of human emotions to manipulate / instigate. Once you've got the mob to move in any direction, it doesn't take much more to keep them moving (Law of Conservation of Energy? ). As long as the rhetoric is strong, and the small victories keep coming... and your 'side' has the rifles.

    The only way to reverse these trends is to come in with a bigger stick, knock off the bad guys, and give the people enough education to think for themselves, to achieve for themselves.

    And the USA has the biggest stick on the Planet.

    AntiqueDr
    *TFF Senior Staff*
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    (2/17/02 5:03:32 pm)
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    A worthy purpose, to be sure. But what is the cost of sustainability? Can that feasibly be done? Economically or politically? There's the rub.

    Pick a cesspit - doesnt matter which one. Take out the current leadership, begin the rebuilding process. There is always, absolutely always, another budding tyrant waiting in the wings. We've learned in the past they are all too willing to sit back and allow someone else to spend the cash rebuilding their country. They sit back and fall in line like good little subjects - until its their turn at the reins. Then they put on the mirrored sunglasses and start calling themselves "General."

    I guess it would certainly be job security for the military. They could make scheduled sweeps... "Let's see... 2004? OK, this must be Afghanistan."

    We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
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    kdub01
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 265
    (2/17/02 5:39:03 pm)
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    Well said, Doc -

    Agree with you 100%. Piggy - you're not a racist. You're what was called an "Isolationist" back in the '30's, a group headed up by a person of stature, Chas Lindburg, no less. They advocated basically the same thing - America for Americans and let the rest of the world take care of themselves without our interference. Not a bad policy, just didn't work.

    I agree the borders need to be made more leakproof (being an Arizonian, it is a topic close to home!) and the illegals are just that - illegals. We shouldn't harbor them or mollycoddle them. Problem is, when they DO get caught and put on a bus for the border, they usually beat the border patrolmen back to the border! There is no penalty, unless they commit a felony while in the US. Then, it's mostly again, deportation back across the border. Supposedly, the next time they get caught here, it's a jail sentence (Ha!)

    For the life of me, I can't understand how purported wise men in our government and institutions can be so nieve as to think we can go in any country outside of our own, disarm their military peacefully, throw out their elected or assumed leaders, install our handpicked puppets, throw billions of dollars of your and my money (remember, the US gov't has NO finances of its own - only what they milk from you and me!) at them, then walk off dusting their hands and truely believe they solved the problem once and for all. Stupidity reigns supreme in such logic!

    The best course of action, IMHO, is to build up our technology and weaponry, plus good ol' manpower, to the peak of current capabilities, then tell the despots and their henchmen that true harm is coming their way with the first provocative act on their part. Then, make sure we back up the words with action - regardless of what the rest of the world community milk sops think of it! Ol' Teddy Rooseveldt had it right - talk softly, but carry a great big stick!

    rayra
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 222
    (2/17/02 6:36:13 pm)
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    Doc - 'scheduled stops' - all part of being the 'World's Policeman'!
    Actually, that's what a strong CIA is for - just with a little more oversight.
    Some trumped up gang / junta boss puts on those mirrored sunglasses, starts gathering trigger-pullers, we put in a team and pop him. There's no one on this planet we can't touch, with the timely will to do so. MIssing Osama was a complete cock-up.

    As for the other half of this thread - work camps for everybody! Repeat offenders, juvenile offenders, illegals - "3 hots and a cot". The sooner the punishment is really that, the sooner recidivism and law-breaking in general declines. Federal stats do show a 15-yr gradual decline in violent crime - I wonder how the recidivism rates in chain-gang states compare to non-chain-gang states?

    As for specific issue of Mexican illegals - I've spent most my life in Sand Diego, L.A., southern CA, have family in CA, AZ, TX - it really is an issue of jobs and opportunity. For the great majority of those poor bastards, they're illegal existence in this country, the sub-minimum wages are an improvement over their hometowns.

    Best collective solution would be to find a way of truly incorporating these millions of 'hidden' people, so they can make decent wages, so they can be TAXED.
    We ought to be concentrating our efforts on truly incorporating them into our society, instead of a fultie attempt to lock them out.

    Immigration is what this country is (was?) about. That and pursuing a better life. From the Pilgrims on down, waves of people have come to these shores for the real (or illusory) belief that they could improve their lives. That 'America' would be a better place for them to succeed, to raise a family.


    Edited by: rayra at: 2/17/02 6:39:47 pm

    AntiqueDr
    *TFF Senior Staff*
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    (2/17/02 6:43:27 pm)
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    There already is a means of incorporating them - legal immigration. They choose not to, because this way they get all the good stuff anyway but none of the responsibility.


    We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
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    Xracer
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 1673
    (2/17/02 6:47:42 pm)
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    Doc, you make too much sense.

    You are hereby banished from the Forum!

    rayra
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 223
    (2/17/02 7:17:50 pm)
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    Doc, I don't think it's even that deliberate.
    Has anyone got good information / linkage on what the hell's going on with the Immigration dept? How is it run? what's the average period of time it takes to get approved? get a Grenn Card? get Resident Alien status? attain citizenship? how are cases handled?

    I've got to wonder why legal immigration is avoided.

    Started digging, found a good summary list -www.sru.edu/depts/artsci/...s/laws.htm

    1976 Immig. Act - Looks like legal immigration cap is 20,000/yr from ea. country in the americas. That's for those that intend Citizenship(?).

    1990 Immig. Act - something like 750,000 /yr for immigrant labor. I've seen estimates that the illegal immigration from the Americas is closer to 2.5 Million / yr - 3 times that allowed number.

    hmm.

    They are making enough $ to eat, so they must be finding work - (and here comes the ancient rationale) so are they doing jobs that citizens won't do?

    Can a non-citizen (legally) collect welfare?

    False Identification?
    How hard is it to create a tamper-proof welfare system? (or as I'd prefer, workfare - to hell with giving things away for free).

    But 'oh no, can't have national registration'

    Seems like every problem issue is overlaid / obstructed by contradicting knee-jerk reactions. And even if someone can craft a plan, there's Congressional politics and Media slant and polls and public opinion, and ultimately a complete lack of ability to pursue ANY goal for ANY length of time.

    Just seems like the means, the technology, the resources are all there, laying around, and it's just a matter of an inability to FOCUS, to APPLY those resources. To stop the Fear and Partisan Politics and Rhetoric, and Get The Job Done.







    AntiqueDr
    *TFF Senior Staff*
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    (2/17/02 7:23:47 pm)
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    Non-citizens thrive on welfare. They also thrive on free tax-funded hospitals, too. Not a shift goes by that I dont take at least two completely undocumented illegals to the county hospital. I've delivered babies in the field to illegals. I could just about feel the vacuum on my wallet.

    Hey! There's an idea! Get INS to set up a booth in the triage area of all county hospitals! Not only will they nab some illegals, but the patient load would go down so much the hospital wouldn't have to go on divert!


    We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
    www.apaxenterprises.com

    Edited by: AntiqueDr at: 2/17/02 7:26:03 pm

    warpig883
    *TFF Staff*
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    (2/17/02 7:32:59 pm)
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    And we should make sure they are eating at least as good as the Afgans we are feeding. As a metter of fact I would like to be one of the first to send a cash donation to support the rest of the world at my own misfortune.























    sarcasm intended
    We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans... -- Bill Clinton, US President (USA Today, 11 Mar 1993, page 2a)

    LIKTOSHOOT
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3816
    (2/17/02 7:36:06 pm)
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    Don`t forget Doc....they vote too. Who benefits the most, is who hands out the most. That is why you will not see this attacked with a vigor. 9-11 aslo delayed the millions Bush was going to give a free ride, just as Clinton did. LTS

    rayra
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 224
    (2/17/02 8:00:49 pm)
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    Excuse me?? Illegal Aliens are able to VOTE?? Since when? Liktoshoot, what kind of BAIT is that?

    and AntiqueDr, from your post - you some kind of LEO? why aren't YOU busting them?
    As for your Hospital -> INS idea, fabulous! and I heartily encourage you to forward the idea to the INS - Hospitals are already supposed to notify the police about injuries that are fight / knife / gunshots, why shouldn't / couldn't they do the same for undocumented aliens?

    Hospitals, foodbanks, schools - all potential info-gathering points in the hunt for illegals. Guess Churches wouldn't assist.

    So, let's pinch some of the Treasury dept's funding (say, from the ATF ) and slide it over to the INS and tell them to get their asses in gear.

    All you people cheering Pat Buchanan and Rush's alarmist claptrap about closing the borders ought to focus on getting more efficiency out of your existing government and tax-spending, instead of seeking quick-fix non-solutions


    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2896
    (2/17/02 9:16:26 pm)
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    They only get to vote in Florida for AlGore, when the Dems picked them up on the way to pick up the felons to vote too...

    I CAN'T believe I didn't get in on this, but I'm too lazy to go back and read it all, so I'll take a "pass" on this one and assume you guys covered everything I'd have said, and if not, then I'd just piss somebody off probably and have to go ANOTHER 100 or so posts explanin' myself....
    We must make war as we must; not as we would like. - Field Marshal Kitchener, 1915

    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2897
    (2/17/02 9:18:03 pm)
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    AND I thoroughly enjoyed the 500 today, so I guess that makes me a "racist" too....
    We must make war as we must; not as we would like. - Field Marshal Kitchener, 1915

    BlackGun
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 3132
    (2/17/02 9:53:19 pm)
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    There is a lot to be learned by culture diversity! I'm a happy Camper, I live in the U.S.A.
    Tread On Me, But, Leave My DONUT Alone! !


    BlackGUN

    TallTLynn
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3213
    (2/17/02 10:13:15 pm)
    | Edit | Del
    ezSupporter
    Re: Someone please tell me again...
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    rayra - AntiqueDr is a EMT (well probably more than that) and does ambulance shifts. No he's not a LEO but a person who helps those who are in pain and suffering.

    And where you got the idea he might be a LEO from what he said is way beyond me!

    rayra
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 225
    (2/17/02 10:39:52 pm)
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    just the first thing that popped into my head when I read 'shift' and 'illegals' and 'running people to the hospital' - I know many more LEOs, than hospital personnel, here in L.A., and those comments jibed with stories I'd been told - nothing meant by it at all.


    TallTLynn
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3215
    (2/17/02 10:46:28 pm)
    | Edit | Del
    ezSupporter
    Re: Someone please tell me again...
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    rayra - didn't think you meant anything by it - just didn't understand your reasoning till your explanation.

    LIKTOSHOOT
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3817
    (2/17/02 11:10:46 pm)
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    rayra, I didn`t say they were legal to vote. I only stated that they do vote. I bet you believe when people put their hand on the bible in court or otherwise they, "tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth." Charlie Brown said it best,




    GOOD GRIEF!

    BlackGun
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 3133
    (2/17/02 11:11:01 pm)
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    HA! My Friend, and I don't use these words loosely, has more, honor, and integrity than most people I know, He's honest, forth right and loves his fellow man. If I were to ever have a partner and was in dier straits, Doc would, beyond a shadow of a doubt, take a bullet to save my life, giving of his own self to preserve the life of another. That is Andrew Petty! Love him, for he has never, ever been critical of another, only objective!
    Tread On Me, But, Leave My DONUT Alone! !


    BlackGUN

    AntiqueDr
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 2070
    (2/17/02 11:24:54 pm)
    | Edit | Del
    ezSupporter
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    Actually, I'm a Paramedic/Instructor in east Harris County, TX. Some pretty mean streets, heavy Hispanic population with a large part of them illegal. I hung up the LEO stuff some time ago, but I was a patrolman in the City of Houston for a few years then shifted to arson investigation for a suburban city.

    The core of my point is this: I know from direct experience that a large percentage of the illegals PREFER to be illegals because they get to reap the benefits of more pay, better (free) healthcare and generally better living conditions without having to pay the piper. They get paid cash for labor. They have no social security number, pay no taxes, cannot be called for draft or even jury duty. If they actually manage to get caught (unlikely), they get detained briefly then ride the bus back to Mexico. Rayra, they make PLANS for this! They know how long they'll be gone and how long it will take to get back. It's something of an inconvience, but a temporary one.

    I tell you who should be the most pissed-off. The LEGAL immigrant who has jumped through the hoops and is busy supporting his family and being a productive member of society. If I were one, I would spit in the face of every illegal I encountered.

    I will agree that completely sealing the border is an improbability. It is not realistic, no more realistic than permanently or semi-permanently occupying third-world countries. Far more realistic on the one count is incarcerating those illegals who get caught and using them as state-controlled chain gang crews for a specific period. Make the old country look a little better than before. On the second count, when some cesspool country threatens American interest we slap 'em flat and send a stern warning that the next bunch of idiots can get slapped flat too, or they can enjoy the commerce and trade that friendly relations with the US brings. Their choice.
    We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
    www.apaxenterprises.com

    rayra
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 226
    (2/18/02 1:45:25 am)
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    Quote:
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    rayra, I didn`t say they were legal to vote. I only stated that they do vote. I bet you believe when people put their hand on the bible in court or otherwise they, "tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth." Charlie Brown said it best,
    GOOD GRIEF!
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    Hey! A boy's gotta have a dream!


    Antique - that sums the whole thing up, for so many situations, locally and globally - 1.) make the lesson easy to remember, 2.) make the punishment memorable, 3.) make the carrot tasty.


    warpig883
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 2475
    (2/18/02 10:17:40 am)
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    1.) make the lesson easy to remember, 2.) make the punishment memorable, 3.) make the carrot tasty.


    now those are words to rule the roost with I couldn't agree more.



    Concerning #3, that makes me very hungry for a good carrot cake. My wifey makes an excellent white frosting to top it off
     
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