Sour and Sweet ( 1 2 3 )

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by ruffitt, Mar 6, 2003.

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  1. ruffitt

    ruffitt *TFF Admin Staff* In Heaven Now

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    TheLiveFreeKid
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    (4/4/02 9:03:17 pm)
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    Got this from one of my newsgroup posts. Not sure of the source, but thought some of you might enjoy it none-the-less. If anyone knows the source, please let me know. All the best folks.

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    This is a statement that was read over the PA system at the football game at Roane County High School, Kingston, Tennessee, by school Principal, Jody McLoud, on September 1, 2000. I thought it was worth sharing with the world and hope you will forward it to all your friends. It shows clearly just how far this country has gone in the wrong direction.

    "It has always been the custom at Roane County High School football games, to say a prayer and play the National Anthem, to honor God and Country.

    Due to a recent ruling by the Supreme Court, I am told that saying a Prayer is a violation of Federal Case Law. As I understand the law at this time, I can use this public facility to approve of sexual perversion and call it, "an alternate lifestyle," and if someone is offended, that's OK.

    I can use it to condone sexual promiscuity, by dispensing condoms and calling it, "safe sex." If someone is offended, that's OK.

    I can even use this public facility, to present the merits of killing an unborn baby, as a "viable means of birth control." If someone is offended, no problem.

    I can designate a school day as, "Earth Day" and involve students in activities to worship religiously and praise the goddess, "Mother Earth," and call it "ecology."

    I can use literature, videos and presentations in the classroom that depict people with strong, traditional Christian convictions as, "simple minded" and "ignorant" and call it, "enlightenment."

    However, if anyone uses this facility to honor God, and to ask Him to bless this event with safety and good sportsmanship, then Federal Case Law is violated.

    This appears to be inconsistent at best, and at worst, diabolical. Apparently, we are to be tolerant of everything and anyone, except God and His Commandments.

    Nevertheless, as a school principal, I frequently ask staff and students to abide by rules with which they do not necessarily agree. For me to do otherwise would be inconsistent at best, and at worst, hypocritical. I suffer from that affliction enough unintentionally. I certainly do not need to add an intentional transgression.

    For this reason, I shall "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's," and refrain from praying at this time.

    However, if you feel inspired to honor, praise and thank God, and ask Him, in the name of Jesus, to bless this event, please feel free to do so. As far as I know, that's not against the law----yet."

    One by one, the people in the stands bowed their heads, held hands with one another, and began to pray.

    They prayed in the stands. They prayed in the team huddles. They prayed at the concession stand, and they prayed in the announcer's box.

    The only place they didn't pray was in the Supreme Court of the United States of America - the seat of "justice" in the "one nation, under God."



    LIKTOSHOOT
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 4425
    (4/4/02 10:39:22 pm)
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    Dang! Where have you been? LTS
    T.F.F.

    TheLiveFreeKid
    Member
    Posts: 13
    (4/4/02 11:28:16 pm)
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    LTS... I've been checkn in a few times a week... watching this group grow like crazy... reading a comment here and there... following a recommended link or two. Just haven't had much time to post. And haven't taken the time to sign in. Couldn't resist sending this one, though...

    Do you really have 4425 posts? Good God yall... no that's commitment! LFK

    barbon
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    (4/4/02 11:29:18 pm)
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    The "under god" phrase wasn't added to the Pledge of
    Allegiance until sometime in the 1950's. In response to the
    Senator McCarthy communist hunt.

    This nation was founded on the principal of equality.
    If your pray to the Christian God and Jesus it is your right.
    But it is also the right of the Jew to pray in his way, the
    Muslim also, (I know it's fasionable to bash Muslims now, but just because it's fashionable doesn't make it right).
    And the Hindu, who worships Shiva.

    Should the taxes of the worshipers of other faiths be used to promote the Christianity? No, schools should be places of secular learning. Not the teaching or promotion of any religion. The home and church is where religion should be taught.

    Our Constitution is not based on the Bible as some people believe. The founding fathers were a notoriously non-religious group anyway. The Constitution is based on English common law. Much of the legal framework is Roman law, filtered through the French legal system. But the main body of the law is English common law. The founding fathers were very careful to make sure that no
    religion or church be sanctioned by the government. The reason of course was the English governments sanction of
    the Church of England.

    Did you ever wonder (if you have ever read the English Bible) what the very first page in the book means?
    The English Bible in common use is not the King James Bible as commonly believed. It is the Authorized Version, based on the King James Version of 1611. Well, who
    authorized it? The church and government of England.
    It was illegal to print any other Bible, Catholic, Hebrew or whatever. The Bible you use today was the official Bible of the British government and church.

    I once ran a department in a large aircraft company. I had a Jew, several Catholics, a Hindu, and some Protestants of various hues. One Muslim, worked nearby, who was a Romanian and European. Several other Hindus worked nearby
    and all of these people came into our department regularly. Christmas came. One of the Protestants brought in a large box of Christmas decorations. When she started hanging them, I told her that she must respect the people in our group of other religions, that she could decorate her desk and workspace as she wished, but not the entire group. The Protestants were the only ones angered. They
    began by calling my boss, then his boss and ended up with an opinion from the legal department. Management and legal
    agreed with me. The decorations did not go up.
    Several of the group came to me secretly and thanked me, for standing up for their rights and feelings.

    The Supreme Court ruling does not forbid prayer at all.
    What is does is basically enforce the teachings of Jesus on prayer, and the admonishment of St. Paul on respecting the rights of others. The Supreme Court of the United States of America is giving the words of Jesus and St. Paul the force of law and Protestant, fundamentalist Christians are angry about it!

    Any way it is a puzzle to me why Christians insist on praying in public. Jesus, whom is called the Christ, had a special name for people who pray in public. He told Christians how to pray, in secret. Want to know the word
    Jesus used for people who pray in public? Hypocrite. Hey, don't be mad at me, Jesus said it, I didn't.

    Paul himself said for Christians to give no offense to others. Want to know why? Go read the Bible. Which obviously most Christians don't do.

    It has always been my experience that the less sure anyone is in their faith, the more belligerant they are about their beliefs, especially if someone does not agree with them. This is true with religion, homosexuality, or whatever.

    Remember Afghanistan was "one nation, under God", as is
    most Arabic nations.
    Allah is just Arabic for God, Christians are supposed to have the same God, both got God from the Jews.

    At one time the Christian religion was the only religion in all of Europe. The Church reigned supreme. This period in history is known as The Dark Ages.


    Those who don't study history are doomed to repeat it.

    I know this will make some of you mad. Please read the above on insecurity. Oh yeah, by the way why don't you read what the Bible has to say about what I said. No, don't ask the preacher to explain it, read what the Bible says. You say you believe it to be the verbally inspired word of God, without error. But do you?

    In conversation with a Baptist minister I remarked that the main trouble I had with Christians was that I couldn't get them to read the Bible. He looked at me in silence for a long time, then replied, with a sad look on his face, and sadness in his voice, "That's the main trouble I have with them."


    Don't bother to flame me, I'm fireproof.



    TheLiveFreeKid
    Member
    Posts: 14
    (4/5/02 12:30:52 am)
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    "Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath?" --Thomas Jefferson

    barbon... In my opinion, you, and others like you, by attempting to rewrite history and remove God from American Government, are doing a tremendous disservice to this great Country. For the record I hold that most of the points you represent as facts in your post are actually blatent fabrications. Your claim, for example, that the "founding fathers were a notoriously non-religious group anyway" is absolute nonsense. Here is just a small sample of quotes to back up my arguement.


    "Do not let any one claim to be a true American if they ever attempt to remove religion from politics." --George Washington

    "The Christian religion, when divested of the rags in which they [the clergy] have enveloped it, and brought to the original purity and simplicity of it's benevolent institutor, is a religion of all others most friendly to liberty, science, and the freest expansion of the human mind." --Thomas Jefferson

    "It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible." George Washington

    "Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people...so great is my veneration of the Bible that the earlier my children begin to read, the more confident will be my hope that they will prove useful citizens in their country and respectful members of society." John Adams

    "A nation of well-informed men who have been taught to know the price of rights which God has given them cannot be enslaved." Benjamin Franklin

    "The Bible is the cornerstone of liberty...students' perusal of the sacred volume will make us better citizens, better fathers, and better husbands." Thomas Jefferson

    "If we will not be governed by God, then we will be ruled by tyrants." William Penn

    First Two Lines of the Declaration of Independence:

    “When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed…”

    Last Line of the Declaration of Independence:

    “And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.”

    ---------------------------------------------------

    Incidentally, I'm no Bible thumper. But this Philadelphia Quaker (who happens to be married to a Pakistani Muslem) can't stand to see our Founding Fathers and our form of government so boldly mischaracterized.


    barbon
    V.I.P. Member
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    (4/5/02 1:13:43 am)
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    Yes, history has been edited, but by whom?
    Have you ever read Will and Ariel's monumental
    History of Civilization? A tremendous effort. But it is
    worthless as a history. Why? Because of it's Christian
    apologetics and bias. Why couldn't they just write history? I don't know.

    What do you know of the Hellfire Club? Know any of it's members?


    No, I and others like me have not re-written history.
    But we want the history to be un-biased.

    Did you ever read the histories of the Napoleanic wars? In French? Our history of that period is English
    history. Read the French and you will see an entirely
    different history.

    Talk about re-writing history, quick now what was the
    Civil War about? Why was it fought? Read the history
    that was written then. James G. Blaine's 2 volume
    history of the Civil Rebellion. He was there, he was a
    Vice-President and presidential candidate. He analysed the 20 years leading up to the Rebellion.
    It was not fought over the issues that are now commonly believed.

    Politicians have always pandered to the masses.

    Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.

    Talk about edit job, I almost forgot and came back to add
    this.

    You know the standard history of the Pilgrims. The official
    textbook history. Left England so they could worship as they saw fit. Got kicked out of Holland, so they came to the New World to worship as they saw fit. True, but what caused it? The Church of England had reformed itself. Amongst other things it no longer allowed the branding of women. It became a kinder, gentler church. The Puritans didn't like it! Holland kicked them out for being cruel to their own members. There was no religious freedom in the
    time of the Pilgrims. You belonged to their church or else.
    Read up on their religious practices. Oh, and they didn't build log cabins. They didn't know about them. Didn't build
    houses until they sawed lumber.

    Me re-write history? Nah-h-h-h the real story is so much better than I could possibly make up.

    Edited by: barbon at: 4/5/02 2:08:45 am

    Different name
    V.I.P. Forum Host
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    (4/5/02 7:05:51 pm)
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    Respectfully submitted:

    I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men.
    I Timothy 2:I KIV

    To intercede for someone is to "stand in the gap" for him, to plead his case before the throne of God.
    In Romans 8:26, 27 KJV we are told by the apostle Paul that the Holy Spirit makes intercession for us according to the will of the Lord.
    In Hebrews 7:25 we read that Jesus "...is always living to make petition to God and intercede with Him and intervene..." for us.
    Finally, Paul exhorts us here in 1 Timothy 2:1 KJV to make intercession "for all men," meaning that we pray for all people everywhere.
    Intercession is one of the most important ways we carry on the ministry of Jesus Christ which He began in this earth.

    NOTE:
    "PRAYER OF AGREEMENT"

    Again I tell you if two of you on earth agree (harmonize together, make a symphony together) about whatever [anything and everything] they may ask, it will come to pass and be done for them by My Father in heaven.

    For wherever two or three are gathered (drawn together as My followers) in (into) My name, there I AM in the midst of them.
    Matthew 18:19, 20

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    Charlie D
    For YOUR thoughts...
    If WE can pray anytime and anywhere, we won't feel we have to wait until just the right moment or place to pray.
    It is the Holy Spirit of God within us Who provoke us and leads us to pray. Rather than delaying, we need to learn to yield to the leading of the Spirit as soon as we sense it.
    That is part of learning to pray all manner of prayers at all times. Wherever we may be, and whatever we may be doing.

    (Just perhaps ....Overcoming Emotional Battles With
    the Power of God's Word.)

    Pray About Everything
    and Fear Nothing!

    ...The earnest (heartfelt, co-
    tinued) prayer of a righteous man
    makes tremendous power available
    [dynamic in its working].

    James 5:16




    Edited by: Different name at: 4/5/02 8:15:03 pm

    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3288
    (4/7/02 10:45:17 am)
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    Ah, the more we know the less we know...

    You are right, LF, one of the biggest myths of American History is that our founding fathers were "Notoriously unreligious."

    The truth is EXACTLY 180 degrees to the opposite, they were notoriously RELIGIOUS.

    Yes, most did NOT belong to "established" churches of the day, considering in most colonies that church was the Anglican Church...the tyranny of both Mother England AND the Anglican Church contributed just about equally to our Revolution...but to a man, they were unapologetically religious. Washington, for example, may NEVER have mentioned Jesus Christ in any of his writings, but in almost EVERY one he had a reference to God, the Creator, or a similar phrase....

    Interestingly, the American Revolution has gone through several identifiable "phases" of where it is "fashionable" to characterize it and the subsequent debate on the Constitution in certain interpretations. From the first 50-100 years when the founding Fathers were deified, as larger than life, to the second phase where the entire Revolution/Constitution was merely a philosophical and metaphysical debate, to the more recent times where "the dead white guys" were irelevant...the pendulum IS swinging, like it always does, and we will return to a more Conservative interpretation, it is already happening.

    And anyone who uses the term "Tax dollars to promote..." in a Constitutional debate, is already imposing modern interpretations on the Founding Fathers...the idea of "Tax Dollars" supporting ANYTHING would have been an alien idea, and probably repulsive to them...if you spend any time reading the American debates of the late 18th Century, you would really understand what was meant by "There shall be no State Sponsored Religion..." That is absolutely aimed at the Anglican Church...you should be free to attend any other Christian Church you so choose...in fact, that clause is pretty much what put the Baptist and Methodist Churches into the mainstream of American life. I too, apologize if this "truth" offends you.

    Does that mean EVERY American must be a Christian? NO. In fact, it means just the opposite, but it also does NOT preclude the USA being a Christian Nation, in fact if you understand the Founding Fathers as Christians, you CANNOT interpret it any other way...and so the "fashionable" trend to belittle or deny them as Christians...while we have to be sensitive to others' faith, it is also incumbent for them to be sensitive to ours...and the idea that it is somehow "insensitive" to others to allow Christmas decorations in the workplace is another modern social interpretation of the Constitution, which is insensitive to Christians...you CANNOT have it both ways...the PROPER response would have been to ALLOW the decorations, while at the same time allowing anyone to decorate at the appropriate time with their "generally recognized" religious symbols...and yeah, that opens debate into "Generally Recognized," which is an insult to "Modern Social Conciousness" but would NOT have been to the Founding Fathers.....

    Sometimes, listening to a "Historian" preach the interpretation they choose to espouse as "the truth" is very enlightening, if only to serve as a window to observe their true political agenda, and nothing more.

    History is an Art, not a Science, and anyone who claims to know the "true" History, is really showing their knowlege may be a mile wide, but an inch and a half deep....


    "Don't hear him call you an ---hole, hear WHY he's calling you an ---hole." -------- From "A Season on the Brink"

    Edited by: polishshooter at: 4/7/02 12:09:03 pm

    Donny Henry
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    (4/7/02 9:04:41 pm)
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    Quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Any way it is a puzzle to me why Christians insist on praying in public. Jesus, whom is called the Christ, had a special name for people who pray in public. He told Christians how to pray, in secret. Want to know the word
    Jesus used for people who pray in public? Hypocrite. Hey, don't be mad at me, Jesus said it, I didn't.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    "Christians insist on praying in public"...Barbon, don't put us all in a box, and say we are all the same...There are good, and bad...Right, and wrong, in any group of people I can think of.
    With that said...Daniel prayed in his window three times a day, after being instructed not to, did God punish him? No, he was preserved while sitting in a den of lions (his punishment)...King David tossed his robes in the street and exalted the risen Christ...
    One correction, the word Jesus used for people who pray in public was not "hypocrite" it was "Pharisee" and the only reason the Pharisees prayed aloud in public was to draw attention to themselves, so that people would look upon them and see that they are "Godly" people. You are right that a Christian doesn't have to pray aloud in public to get the Lord's attention....Scripture says that Hannah prayed all the time and only moved her mouth, yet no sound could be heard. We as Christians pray aloud simply to glorify the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. We as Christians get so tired of people screaming and hollering over a ball game that will do nothing, and has done nothing for them, while the King of Kings that died for my sins, deserves all our attention, and gets so little...Both aloud and in silent, God deserves much more than I can give. Christ did not instruct us to pray in silent. He did, however, tell us that there would be times when we would need to be alone with him and humble ourselves to him and give him our total attention....He gave us instruction to get in our "closet of prayer" so that we might bare our soul to him and weep before him without worrying about who is listening and what is going on around us.

    You know--I truly don't think the Lord is picky how you pray, whether it be silent or very loud--as long as you are giving him what he deserves and that is praise with your whole heart.

    Just my .002

    I've got to add one more thing...It hasnt been that long ago President Bush's airplane lit upon a runway, taxied to a stop, the door was let down, and our President emerged in the doorway...a group of people that had gathered and awaiting his arival in the sweltering heat, stood, and presented him a said 45 minute ovation...This is all well, and good, but dont ever do that for God!



    ~-~Courage is not the lack of fear...
    but the presence of faith.~-~


    Edited by: Donny Henry at: 4/7/02 10:24:51 pm

    whiteclouder
    Member
    Posts: 46
    (4/8/02 9:49:06 am)
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    donny:

    "And he lived in the tranquility of his confidence." (Simon, speaking about Walks Fast in Book 2)

    I applaud your post.

    Clouder..

    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3317
    (4/9/02 10:56:02 am)
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    'Clouder, sometimes I marvel at people who can say in a few words what I struggle to write a thesis on and can't explain properly...

    Did you ever notice that it is the most insecure in their beliefs on religion that are the most belligerent and vocal on BOTH sides?

    I don't care if they are some of the so-called "Born Again" Christians that as part of their faith journey find they must belittle and degrade other religious faiths or even other Christians to reinforce their own faith, which in itself is pretty intolerant and "unChrist-like"...

    Or on the other side, the Atheists or Agnostics that in order to strengthen their own humanistic "intelligent" beliefs must degrade and belittle ANY faith...instead of "merely" relying on the "reason" that makes their position so "intellectually superior...." at least in their own minds....

    "Tranquility of Confidence" is so descriptive...true Faith IS so peaceful, isn't it?


    "Don't hear him call you an ---hole, hear WHY he's calling you an ---hole." -------- From "A Season on the Brink"

    LIKTOSHOOT
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 4476
    (4/9/02 11:15:10 am)
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    Tell that to the ones put to the sword..............
    T.F.F.

    whiteclouder
    Member
    Posts: 48
    (4/9/02 11:52:08 am)
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    LTS:
    Here's one from the third book for you. A very old Simon has told is great-great nephew of a betrayal Simon had perpetrated when he was younger and tells him of the lesson he learned from it.

    "Compared to the soul, the pain of the flesh is trivial."

    And this old had suffered terribly from wounds, hunger, infection and the cold.

    Swords? P'tooey, bring 'em on.

    Clouder..

    LIKTOSHOOT
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 4479
    (4/9/02 12:24:56 pm)
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    Mearly refering to this line, below. I get to pick and choose too. Neener-Neener


    "Tranquility of Confidence" is so descriptive...true Faith IS so peaceful, isn't it?"

    T.F.F.

    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3320
    (4/9/02 1:36:06 pm)
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    LTS, "True Faith IS so peaceful..." even UNDER the sword. In fact, it is times like that many notice it for the first time...

    It never fails to amaze me how people so easily can take MAN'S transgressions committed in the name of religion, and immediately use that to attack Divinity as a rule...but heck, that isn't new we attack all kinds of things rather than the true cause...not much different than blaming GUNS for crime, really...


    God's ways are not Man's ways. PERIOD.

    And it was MAN that committed every atrocity or injustice, "in the name of God," or for any and all other causes....

    Man's inhumanity towards Man is evident throughout history, no matter what the "cause" or reason, in fact, you can make the case that the cause is irelevant.

    The IRA blows up a bus, does it REALLY have to do with religion?

    The Palestinian blows up a bus, does it REALLY have to do with religion?

    Hitler exterminating millions of Jews (along with millions of others...), was it about RELIGION?

    The Jesuits put someone to death for heresy, did it REALLY have to do with religion?

    Heck, even the planes flown into the WTC, RELIGION? Maybe it made someone willing to die for his cause, but WAS that cause religion???

    No...POWER....MONEY...CONTROL....take your pick, THAT is what even all those killed supposedly over "religion" in history died for, except a few true "martyrs," but even that term is so overused and so misunderstood today....

    Why is that so hard for the skeptics to understand?
    "Don't hear him call you an ---hole, hear WHY he's calling you an ---hole." -------- From "A Season on the Brink"

    LIKTOSHOOT
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 4480
    (4/9/02 2:42:14 pm)
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    Now you don`t really believe that do you??? Come on.....


    badboybob
    Member
    Posts: 3
    (4/9/02 4:18:09 pm)
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    Organized religion has caused more human misery than all despors combined. Zealots who hate people of other beliefs are just like moslem murderers. They're too stupid to realze that we believe in the same God.

    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3324
    (4/9/02 7:35:43 pm)
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    Yeah I DO believe that, maybe some despot can manipulate the uncouth masses to killing for God or Allah, but if you dig deeper than the "convenient" answer, that it was over religion, you WILL find one or more of the underlying reasons...POWER...MONEY...CONTROL...maybe we can add Nationalism to that...if coupled with Militarism, but even then it USUALLY reverts back to "control," whether it's real estate, politics, the hunting grounds, succession, women, natural resources, economics, populations, envy, whatever....wholly HUMAN reasons, not Divine, or in the name of Divinity...

    It really jars my preserves when I hear historically simplistic statements like "religion has killed more people than anything..."

    That is SIMPLY not true.

    Yes, EVEN the Crusades, even Northern Ireland, even the American Revolution, even the Spanish Inquisition, even all the wars to spread or stop Islam, what is happening today in Palestine...and on and on....and EVEN in fact back to the times the Romans were persecuting and killing Christians...Christianity was a direct threat to Roman control and power....now the Christian Martyrs may have died for their faith, but the REASON they were persecuted was they were a threat to the Roman status quo....

    Heck, you can even make the point that JESUS was killed not for religious reasons..but because he was the absolute threat to the control of the Romans, but also specifically the political power and wealth of the Scribes and Pharisees...He DIED for us, yes, but why was he persecuted by man in the first place?

    If you want me to expound further, I will, but I don't feel like putting people to sleep with another boring lecture...that nobody wants to hear (read?)anyway...


    "Don't hear him call you an ---hole, hear WHY he's calling you an ---hole." -------- From "A Season on the Brink"

    idsman75
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    (4/9/02 10:29:36 pm)
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    This is a topic that gets beat to death weekly by one of the local liberal talk show hosts. I'm a talk radio junkie and listen to it anyways. I believe in prayer and I believe in public prayer. My family and I still bow our heads before every meal that we eat together when I am fortunate enough to have vacation so I can spend time with them. We bow our heads before every public meal in every restaurant as well. We do not do this in order to parade our beliefs around and make a statement. The Bible does not condemn all public prayer. The Bible condemns the prayers of the pharisies who did it as a public show of their alleged piety. My family and I pray together before public meals in restaurants because we refuse to change our beliefs and customs in spite of the pressures to do so. I don't push my religion on anyone but I will always be prepared to share the reason for the faith that I have that others may also grow in their faith.

    If they can't pray before athletic events or graduation ceremonies, let them quote the minutes of Congress which are often preceeded by a Congressional chaplain. It is not a prayer, it is quote.

    SW Man
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    It is very interesting to see the comments of those that are so hip on the "seperation of Church and state" and on the idea that prayer is wrong because it offends. There is not and has never been anything in our constitution that "Seperates" Church and state. the only clauses ther state "there shall be no religion endorsed or sponsered by the state". The Constitution and Bill of Rights PROTECTS the church from the state AND THAT IS ALL. Of course if you look into our liberal government and what they have done, they have violated this. In the ecology treaty that Clinton signed from the Brazil meetings, the US Government recognizes religious worship of "Mother Earth" as a nationakl religion as prescribed by some of the UN conventions.

    On the idea of saying a prayer to God being against or offending someones religion, ALL religions have a "God" weither it be God, Buddah, Allah, Jahova, or whatever name it has. The idea of prayer using a "God" is generic. Yes, I might agree that using "Jesus" in a prayer might be more for some religions than others, ALL religions still have their "God".

    As a society we are getting astronomically stupid in the idea that everything offends everyone. It is time they grew up.

    As for our forefathers, They were more religious than 95% of the people in this country today. Their lives and country were based on religion. This country was founded for religious freedom, among other things, and religion was an inportant part of this country. Our forefathers felt that everyone was entitled to their religion and not a state religion. The basis of all our laws and customs are based originally on the Ten Commandments. English common Law, Roman law and most preceding laws were ALL based on the ten Commandments.

    Even our Congress, both houses, as well as the Supreme COurt and most every other area of our government precedes their activities BY A PRAYER. If it is good enough for that, it is DAMN well good enough for events in Schools, Public meetings and everywhere else. Just remember ALL religions have a "God" just with different names.

    Just my 2 cents worth.

    I now surrender the soapbox.
    The second admendment GUARANTEES the Constitution and the other nine.

    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3332
    (4/10/02 12:46:56 am)
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    Yeah, SW, and one other "funny" observation...maybe the word is "ironic?" "Hypocritical?"

    Get into this discussion with ANY Liberal and "the seperation of Church and State" is pivotal to their argument. Point out that it is NOT in the Constitution, they then recant, and say it was a Supreme Court ruling, and you KNOW that is just as important...that decides WHAT the Constitution actually says...and we CAN'T question what the Supreme Court says!

    (That is true, the way our system is set up, until overturned, the Supremes are supreme...and I think it was Brandeis that wrote about "the wall seperating church and state...")







    BUT....


    AND this HAS happened to me with one of my Liberal co workers and a friend....














    Talk to a Liberal, that has those views on THAT decision, about the last Presidential Election and the Supreme Court decision then.....














    It is AMAZING how the court was WRONG, they SELECTED GW, the election was illegitimate, it was UNCONSTITUTIONAL....etc, etc,etc...














    If it wasn't so scary that somebody could think like that it would be funny as hell...
    "Don't hear him call you an ---hole, hear WHY he's calling you an ---hole." -------- From "A Season on the Brink"

    Edited by: polishshooter at: 4/10/02 1:49:38 am

    Xracer
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 1965
    (4/10/02 7:20:23 am)
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    And just to keep the pot boiling.......

    Nowhere in the U.S. Constitution is the Federal Judiciary given the power to interpret the Constitution, or to determine which laws are constitutional or not.

    Donny Henry
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 95
    (4/12/02 5:27:51 am)
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    Wonder where the heck Barbon went?
    ~-~Courage is not the lack of fear...
    but the presence of faith.~-~


    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3375
    (4/12/02 12:32:18 pm)
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    Yeah, Donny, I was wondering that myself...

    He sounded pretty intelligent and thoughtful, even if we didn't agree, but it sounded like a decent discussion was brewing...

    Rereading my posts, I hope he didn't take it wrong and think I was condescending, I wasn't intending it, I love discussions about Historical facts and theories, and some of the things I intimated about his arguments God knows people could say the same about some of mine on other topics...

    One thing I've always been amazed by, is that on ANY topic, somebody just MIGHT have better knowledge than you do...no matter HOW much you DO know about it....or at least another angle to consider it from...NOBODY can read all the books, and somebody MAY have read more, or different ones...

    But then again, some PHd in History may NOT know as much about a PARTICULAR part of History as the least educated among us...especially if his area studies was say "Renaissance Artists" and the discussion is about the Vietnam War....I learned THAT getting my history degree...sometimes "Dr." was flat WRONG.

    But I could still learn from him....

    That's why it's an ART....
    "Don't hear him call you an ---hole, hear WHY he's calling you an ---hole." -------- From "A Season on the Brink"

    Different name
    V.I.P. Forum Host
    Posts: 1657
    (4/12/02 1:47:35 pm)
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    ezSupporter
    Re: sweet and sour
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    Religiously "Inspect" your voting machine in the name of GOD!

    Of course the LAW says you must be registered, etc. etc.
    (Tha HELL with the MASON DIXON LINE ---rite?)

    Charlie D
    We would have called the
    voter registration board sooner....
    But, the State appointed a committee
    to study the problem further.....
    (Those who help are helped)

    Find another State House to discuss waving Flags
    and then, don't pursue an education to teach children
    in our schools --- IF you have a honest religion????

    Edited by: Different name at: 4/12/02 2:57:04 pm

    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3383
    (4/12/02 5:27:29 pm)
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    Charlie, I hate to admit it, but I read your last post about twelve times...

    I must be simple or something, but I STILL can't figure out what you were trying to say...


    But I KNOW it was deep...and I'm FRUSTRATED I can't figger it out!
    "Don't hear him call you an ---hole, hear WHY he's calling you an ---hole." -------- From "A Season on the Brink"

    Different name
    V.I.P. Forum Host
    Posts: 1667
    (4/13/02 12:33:11 pm)
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    ezSupporter
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    Polishshooter:

    Just a few examples of counteractions related to
    what our culture seems to look upon, with values
    often opposite to those of traditional society....

    Public irritations made to order with counter claims
    to offset another. Mostly morose or peevish understandings!

    Charlie D
    Expounding expressions
    of concern about our
    fundamental liberties.
    Has everyone forgotten
    what principled coexistience
    really means?

    Donny Henry
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 96
    (4/13/02 3:09:50 pm)
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    Quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Rereading my posts, I hope he didn't take it wrong and think I was condescending
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    As do I, although he stated he was "flameproof", and we were nowhere near flaming each other...Along with the fact that he is very strong in his opinions as well, I dont believe that he "took his ball, and went home"....I believe he would expect no less from us.


    I just hope he's okay.



    ~-~Courage is not the lack of fear...
    but the presence of faith.~-~


    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3396
    (4/13/02 8:54:42 pm)
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    Donny, I've always said that one thing that really jars my preserves is when people "Quote" then respond on these things, but in your case it's kinda like a signature...LOL...if you and I ever get into an argument, and I get hot, I'll let you know now that that is usually what REALLY sets me off...HELL, I wrote the darn thing but sometimes the quote pees me off when I have to see it AGAIN...

    Good thing most times you and I AGREE...


    But the observation I wanted to make, is, did you ever notice or is it just me that people who end up with a line like "I'm flameproof" or "I can take it" or the like, USUALLY aren't, or can't?

    And again, I mean no disrespect to anyone who does this, just an observation from a year or so on this and other boards...
    "Don't hear him call you an ---hole, hear WHY he's calling you an ---hole." -------- From "A Season on the Brink"

    Donny Henry
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 99
    (4/13/02 10:24:07 pm)
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    Polish:
    I suppose everyone has their pet peeves, but in my defense, the reason I use the "quote" is that if I'm responding to something you said, I'd have type some of what you said anyway...
    Now if there is no post between yours and mine it is of course elementry, but to cut down on "what did you mean by?...." I use the quote.
    Also, I "snip" regularly, so as to cut down on space instead of quoting the whole thing. I picked up on doing this on paintballcity.com...sometimes when you log in there have been several posts made that you'd like to respond to in a single thread, so I quote then respond to as many as 10 or 15 in one single post...Keeps everything neat and organized, Lord knows I need all the help I can get.

    I'll admit that I have made the very same observation that you did...One comes to mind, the first thing this dude said when he started a new topic was, "now I'm not a racist, but...."
    It didn't take long to find out that, yes he was indeed very racist. But with all that said, I guess I still take people at their word untill they prove otherwise...I try so hard not to put everyone in a box, and say they are the same.

    As far as you and I agreeing goes...you are just easy to get along with, very helpfull, and friendly....People like you make it easy to make out that check for internet service every year...I look back and say, yea, I got my moneys worth, I'll gladly shell out the bucks for another year with folks like this.


    ~-~Courage is not the lack of fear...
    but the presence of faith.~-~


    polishshooter
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3401
    (4/13/02 10:54:53 pm)
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    That was very kind of you to say, but I'm not a whole lot different from many others here, one of the reasons this is "home" to me.

    I'm still fairly computer illiterate as my son calls me, I even have some good friends here that want me to join them on MSN messenger, and I keep telling them I don't have the time, but the main reason is I've abused my son about all the time he's on it and how stupid it is, and I'll be DARNED if I'm going to go to him and ask him to show me how!

    One of the reasons I think I don't like the quote thing is I don't know how to do it, except "cut and paste," and I seem to automatically don't like things I don't know...ignorance is not always bliss...


    The OTHER reason I don't like it is when I was new to this 'net thing, and I was on BrandX, somebody did that to me, (and it's easy to do, I talk so darn much, you are SURE to be able to find something I say that would work...somebody that uses lots of words is a better target than somebody who talks in short posts...) took something out of context, quoted it, then built up a helluva straw man and proceeded to beat the crap out of him, at my expense, and was pretty crude about it too...I guess I never got over it.


    For example, rereading this post...you could easily quote:

    "the main reason is I've abused my son " (See, Daddy, I PASTED! )

    and make a heckuva argument against me...(and when you found out I was CATHOLIC too, BOY would you have a SCANDAL... )


    But don't worry, I'm young, I'll get over it yet...


    Donny Henry
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 100
    (4/14/02 8:57:43 am)
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    Shooter, when you said "I'm not a whole lot different from many others here" my first thought was, exactly! Thats why I love the place...Everything I said could be applied to everyone here.

    Sorry about what happened to you on *********, to be honest, i'd have a lot fun with an arguementive s.o.b like that, people that are that arguementive always leave themselves open for a good debate.
     
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