the attiude of some

Discussion in 'The Fire For Effect and Totally Politically Incorr' started by ysacres, Mar 6, 2003.

  1. ysacres

    ysacres Well-Known Member Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2001
    Messages:
    6,045
    Location:
    Pullman WA
    nighthawksh
    Member
    Posts: 27
    (4/29/02 5:58:51 pm)
    Reply the attitude of some
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I know this may get be banned or edited, but I feel I must say something, so I am posting it here, since it is just my opinion.

    The bigotry and racial/ethinic intolerance by some on this board is absoultely mind-numbing. Here in the Pacific Northwest, we have struggled for years to rid our neighborhoods of such intolerance, but I see it stills flourishs elsewhere, and sadly, probably always will.

    If this attitude of mine gets me labeled as a "bleeding-heart liberal" then I guess I will have to live with that. Just as those here who profess to be "Real" American's must live with the hatred and bile they spew!



    Stan H ,, nighthawk
    Sir; I may not agree with what you say
    But I shall defend unto death your right to say it

    Tac401
    Administrator
    Posts: 4300
    (4/29/02 6:30:06 pm)
    Reply
    Re: the attitude of some
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Hawk,

    You are more than welcome to speak your mind at TFF
    without fear of being poofed, as being admin here I don't
    take sides and rarely will I voice an opinion on subjects
    such as the ones I assume you're speaking of however,
    what is the solution here, do we not allow certain posts
    and or subject matter to be posted? do we become big
    brother of TFF and censor any post with a subject
    that will offend someone simply on the merrits of it's
    content alone? If anyone knows the answer to this
    I'd sure like to hear it.

    Do folks have the right to agree to disagree or do they
    not?


    Quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Stan H ,, nighthawk
    Sir; I may not agree with what you say
    But I shall defend unto death your right to say it
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    TFF VMBB Email Tac

    Edited by: Tac401 at: 4/29/02 10:45:13 pm

    TallTLynn
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3799
    (4/29/02 9:39:35 pm)
    Re: the attitude of some
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    hawk, no matter what some do to eradicate hatred it is something that is imbred in quite a few people and it will never go away.

    It's something we all have to deal with - even when it makes us sizzle - and that in itself will feed the fires of those who are intolerant.

    But, however much I hate the fact there are people like that and that I wish I could fight and stop them from the way they are - that is not my right, your right or anybody's right. One had to defend their right to feel that way as if we are defending our right to disagree with them.

    Just my thoughts on this sir, just my thoughts.

    nighthawksh
    Member
    Posts: 28
    (4/29/02 9:57:26 pm)
    Reply Re: the attitude of some
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    two comments;

    Tac,,I 100% support my custom signature,,,freedom of speech is absolutly essential to a free country,, I guess the major thing that bothers me is when they wrap their bigotry in the American Flag and call it patriotism. The type of intolerence I am refering to is as un-Constitutional as denying a person their rights, or as taking away a legally owned firearm.


    TallTLynn, you said:
    "But, however much I hate the fact there are people like that and that I wish I could fight and stop them from the way they are - that is not my right, your right or anybody's right.:

    I must take issue with that statement. It is our right to fight intolerance when it demands the removal of Constitutional rights of others. It is not only our right, as free people, it is our obligation! Did we not have the right to go to war against Hitler? Do we not have the right to go to war against bin Laden? Then we most assurdely have the right to go to war against a domestic evil. And racial/ethnic intolerance can only be described as a domestic evil.

    For those who do not know me, I am a firm believer in the Constitution,,,IN IT'S ENTIRITY! We do not have the options, nor the right, to recognize only the portion of that document we agree with.
    Stan H ,, nighthawk
    Sir; I may not agree with what you say
    But I shall defend unto death your right to say it

    AGunguy
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 1845
    (4/30/02 7:14:32 am)
    Reply Re: the attitude of some
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    All peoples are not created equal, you cannot legislate or rubber stamp people 'equal' just because its the right and fair thing to do.

    Equality and tollerance is a two edged sword as it cuts both ways.

    To be equal with your fellow countryman you need to not hate or want to take what is his or hers, or try to harm or kill them.

    You cannot and should not expect to make your gain in this nation at the expense of those who work and you don't.

    Equality demands that you show responsibility for yourself as well as others.

    Sad to say, equality has become like the cast system like in ancient times, if you are as good as me then you may join our county club. If you are not high up in my social status then you are on the outside looking in at the great ones.

    I guess what I am trying to say is...there really isn't any equality in our society, never has been and most likely never will be. Some just don't want to play the equality game.

    That's why the have nots hate and want to take it away from the have got...who wants to keep it away from the have nots.

    With those two attitudes who has the solution to equality.

    GG

    LIKTOSHOOT
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 4693
    (4/30/02 7:56:39 am)
    Reply Re: the attitude of some
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Interesting.......some pondering on this is required by me...
    T.F.F.

    TallTLynn
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3802
    (4/30/02 8:23:08 am)
    Reply
    Re: the attitude of some
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Mr. Hawk,

    I think you are reading far more into what I said than you should of. When it comes to the Constitution I'm of mixed feelings but I will defend it to my death.

    When it comes to refusing constitutional rights of someone then I will fight that - but I refuse to fight those who just spout their intolerance.

    ldsteff
    Member
    Posts: 27
    (4/30/02 8:44:44 am)
    Reply Intolerance
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Night: Let me get this straight you are going to remove peoples constitutional rights because of someones intolerance? In other words if you disagree with someones thoughts you want to jail or kill them--My friend that is as ignorant as saying"lets kill all intolerant people"You are promoting thought police and that is frightening.Hitler had no constitutional rights neither does bin laden.Its idiotic to think everyone in the world is protected by our constitution,only AMERICANS have our constitutional rights! For you to say you believe in the constitution but you want to deny "certain people" their right to free speech is a bigger threat to these"certain peoples" rights is like saying you want to find an "experianced virgin" You can't have it both ways.
    For you to say people are intolerant because they disagree with your point of view smacks of big brother as well as thought police.Just exactly what the constitution protects us from a corrupt leader who demandfs you think as he does or you don't think at all! With you attitude you might just want to re-read the constitution,chek out that pesky 1St amendment it works for the right as well as the left!!!

    nighthawksh
    Member
    Posts: 29
    (4/30/02 10:52:27 am)
    Reply Re: Intolerance
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I just went back and read my 2 post over,,twice,,and no where do I see any remark I made as to denying anyone their 1st Amendment rights,,, No where do I say to jail or kill anyone,,I did say racial/ethnic intolerance must be fought,, and to do so within the Constitution.
    Just as the bigots and racist have the right to spew their hatered, I have the right and the obligation to educate the public to this danger.

    and,,,I believe there is a document floating around Washington, D.C. somewhere that has a line it that says,,oh, I don't know,,maybe something like "All Men Are Created Equal"


    Stan H ,, nighthawk
    Sir; I may not agree with what you say
    But I shall defend unto death your right to say it

    Zigzag2
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 3109
    (4/30/02 11:20:03 am)
    Reply Re: Intolerance
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    nighthawksh, if it's any consolation, I perfectly understood you position.




    AGunguy
    *TFF Staff*
    Posts: 1846
    (4/30/02 1:13:00 pm)
    Reply Re: Intolerance
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Nighthawksh, I don't know why people here are getting on your case about something you didn't say, as I understood your meaning at the beginning.

    But you and I know there is really no such thing as equality in this nation, or has ever been...and most likely never will be. Politicians have made a few efforts to legislate equal rights for some in the minority classes but it never made them equal in social or economic status. The document that says all men are created equal is about as good in effect as our dying Constitution that is slowly being eroded away by those same politicians who are making evil self serving amendments that will in the end deprive of us all of our liberty and justice.

    I wonder how all of us will feel when we are on the outside looking in at our betters. Once we were citizens, soon we will become subjects just like jolly old England.

    GG

    nighthawksh
    Member
    Posts: 33
    (5/1/02 2:10:25 pm)
    Reply Re: Intolerance
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Agunguy

    I must agree that in our history, there has never been true equality, but that is something which should be strived for. When bigotry/intolerance interfers with that striving for equality, then the nation suffers from the results.

    As for our Constitution "dying", I certainly hope I did not serve 20 years defending it to see it die now. I firmly believe, weither right, left, or center, all Americans need to stand behind it.

    I have long advocated the old Army proverb; "If you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem".

    btw, I do not direct that at you, I direct it to every American

    Now, if we could agree on the road map to that solution,,,
    Stan H ,, nighthawk
    Sir; I may not agree with what you say
    But I shall defend unto death your right to say it

    Edited by: nighthawksh at: 5/1/02 3:13:19 pm

    LIKTOSHOOT
    *TFF Senior Staff*
    Posts: 4709
    (5/1/02 5:03:21 pm)
    Reply Re: Intolerance
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Solution, stop robbing the well to do to take care of the teat suckers. You work, you eat....with some exceptions. As long as the Government forwards class and race envy......they are the problem and this problem will be around as long as they are. LTS
    T.F.F.

    timberbeast
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 186
    (5/2/02 3:22:46 am)
    Reply Re: Intolerance
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    It never ceases to amaze me how badly the statement "All Men Are Created Equal" is so misunderstood, as misunderstood as the statement "Pursuit of Happiness."
    Yes, all are created equal, with INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS. The way our Constitution was intended is that no mob, majority, or vote can remove the rights of any INDIVIDUAL so long as that person does not violate the rights of another. There's the line. Period. Rights are not granted, they exist at birth. There are no "group rights". Rights do not give you the license to demand to earn as much as another who has greater talent or luck. That's socialism, a proven failure. Equality gives one an equal standing as far as the right to "Pursue Happiness", which, as intended by our Founders, with great influence from Locke, means to own property and earn money. The pursuit of happiness is guaranteed, but happiness is not. Equality under the law is guaranteed, but no two humans are equal in any other fashion than in possessing rights individually. A paraplegic is not equal to a healthy youngster in a footrace. But the youngster, most likely is not the equal of his elders in intelligence born from experience. Yet both are equal under the law in the individual freedoms which they possess. And, yes, any person has a right to fight for those principles, however, they do not have an obligation. Obligatory thought control is the antithesis of freedom. One has a perfect right to be communist, socialist, Nazi, racist, or misogynistic, yet one does not have the right to violate another's rights, regardless of belief. The proper purpose of government is to protect these rights through a court system, a legislature and a form of national defense. Any other tampering by the government is merely a cause for trouble. QED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Smoky14
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 124
    (5/2/02 8:38:14 am)
    Reply Re: Intolerance
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Mister Timberbeast:

    So well stated; I concur.

    nighthawksh
    Member
    Posts: 34
    (5/2/02 10:36:40 am)
    Reply Re: Intolerance
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Timberbeast

    Sir, I only take exception to one statement you make, and perhaps that is only in semantics. You say:"And, yes, any person has a right to fight for those principles, however, they do not have an obligation. "

    My use of the term "obligation" is that, to enable this country to remain free, for everybody, all citizens have an obligation to defend that freedom. And, resisting racial/ethnic intolerance in others is necessary to defend said freedom. If one citizen does not have equal freedom, then the whole society suffers.

    I guess the major difference of opinion here is each individuals defination of "equal opportunity". I have refraned from using that term due to the "negative connotations" it now has. However, ALL American's must have the opportunity to, in fact,"Persue Happiness". And, sadly, I feel, many in this country would prefer to deny that right to some based solely on the person's race, ethnicity, gender, age, or sexual preferences. Hatred from within will destroy a society faster than a threat from without.




    Stan H ,, nighthawk
    Sir; I may not agree with what you say
    But I shall defend unto death your right to say it

    timberbeast
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 187
    (5/2/02 10:59:31 pm)
    Reply Re: Intolerance
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Stan, perhaps I should clarify. "Legal obligation." Better? Moral obligations are in the realm of personal values, that which the government should not dictate. That was my intention in that statement. The government has no power to impose any obligations upon any individual, other than the obligation to not violate another's rights. Ethically, or morally, however, folks do feel personal obligations. That might be the reason that I have posted to this subject, and that you have, as well.