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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Now, this is perhaps a difficult subject so, let's start this discussion easy. How many of you have had to kill your pet dog, cat or any of your livestock? Taking them to a vet to give them an injection doesn't count. You have to have squeezed a trigger of your own firearm - rifle or pistol for this to count.

Many of you hunt, and yes kill - for food. Hopefully those of you who do hunt for food also clean and butcher your kill. Cleaning a deer is pretty much the same as cleaning a fish if you fish, it just takes a little longer.

Now, how many of you have ever killed a human being? Not so many of you.

OldGrump brought this subject up, and rightfully so, under the topic of the woman who shot an intruder while hiding in a closet with her children. OldGrump made his comment because of some of the comments that were posted. OldGrump made a very good point.

He is very right in what he said. He spelled it out clearly.

Many of you here in this forum have never had to kill a person. You have not had to reconcile your action for doing so between right and wrong in your own mind. Yet, so many of you who have never killed at all, possibly not even a fish and cleaned it yourself, are happy to say 'that person should have killed that person'. How would you or your children feel about you having killed someone in your own home? Would your children still want to live or sleep in that home or would they now think their home was cursed? Who is willing to clean up all the blood (there is a great deal of blood in a human being)? What would that do to your children later in their lives? These are questions you have not asked.

Every time my son and I killed a fish, we said a prayer for the soul of the fish and thanked that fish for giving his or her life to us so we could eat. We then gutted and cleaned the fish together. We started fishing together when my son was 4 years old and did so together his entire life until he grew up to be a young man. We also hunted together for moose. We don't eat other human beings though.

I have killed, to eat and to protect our Freedom. I have shot my own pets and my own livestock when they were so ill they could not live anymore. I have looked these in the eyes, stroked them, loved them then had to squeeze the trigger. Do not shoot animals between the eyes - I made that mistake ONE time. Fortunately, I never had to kill a person in my home.

We now find ourselves in a very real potential for civil uprising if not outright civil war. Everyone here in this forum must search in their own minds and souls; 'Are you willing to sacrifice your own life and possibly even the lives of your family so that the people will be free'? Are you ready to kill to keep Freedom? If you are not willing to kill for Freedom or potentially sacrifice your life and/or the lives of your family, then the 2nd Amendment really doesn't apply to you to have a right to keep and bear arms. The 2nd Amendment means that you and your firearms are available to protect the Constitution. So, if you own a gun, you need to be willing to protect Freedom with your own life or you should give up your guns. This is what the 2nd Amendment is, and yes, the firearms should be the best technology available because that is what our own government has.

That is what Freedom is people. Freedom costs lives because it is never free. Freedom does have a cost and that cost is high.

Those of you who make the silly statement "come pry them from my cold, dead hands", well, that is exactly what the enemy can do. You may never even get a shot off. They have the helicopter gunships and bombers.

The people are the militia so the people will need to be smarter than the tyrant and his very well armed minions.

What so many folks who have never served do not understand is that those of us who have served and risked our lives made the following oath: "...to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic...". For us, this was akin to a marriage 'till death do us part'. Us veterans who love our country are going to keep this oath till the day we die because when we made our oath it was a blank check that included our life. We were willing to die if need be to protect our Constitution so that future generations would grow up free and no matter how old we get, we are still willing to die. We are also willing to kill and many of us have done so. Those of us who understood the necessity, had the moral conviction that what was necessary was necessary, and had the fortitude of mind, did what needed to be done. We do not have a problem playing with children, loving our family, respecting different religions and looking at ourselves in the mirror each day. We don't have nightmares (well, some of us once in a while). We don't wake up screaming at night (well, some of us once in a while).

So folks. unless you really have squeezed a trigger and actually killed a person and it was right to do so, well, OldGrump has a legitimate complaint. That person you killed had a family. If you kill a person in your own home, do you and your wife or children still want to live in that home? Killing is NEVER frivolous. Killing does have consequences and, for protecting our Constitution, our Country and our Families, may very well cost us our lives too.

William Smith
US Navy vet - Sonar Tech 3rd class.
 

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yep. good points and very true. Most (luckily) will never know if they could pull the trigger. Many who have to don't the first time. Many are lucky enough to live to make the right choice the second time.

Fortunately, uncle sugar does a good job of 'desensitizing' it's 18 year olds, I sleep like a baby every night despite the lives I've ended. Justified in the name of mission and survival. But rest assured, no matter how awesome you think you are for smoking someone, you need to think about your family; they DO NOT want to ever witness or even know about you killing another human, especially first hand. Do your best to avoid it but don't be scared of it or doing it when necessary. Just make sure you know you HAD to do it. If you make the right decision, you and yours will sleep just fine every night. Make a foolish decision and reap the consequences.

The choice is yours!

Fortunately, humans (most anyway) have an encoded inclination to not kill unless absolutely necessary. Those that don't frequently need to be destroyed.
 

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Amen man I don't think it could have been said better. The consequences are heavy. It don't matter how right you were

SGT Martin Daniel
US Army AD
 

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very well written statement
i have killed for food, and it did upset me when i did not make a clean kill.
i have had to put several of my pets down by pulling a trigger. it was not easy, and yes i cried.
have i ever taken a human life? no. could i? yes, if their intent was to harm me or my family
 

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To use a firearm on another himan carrys great repercussions. I have had to put down some pets. That was hard. If at all possible, I don't want to kill a man or woman. If it is forced, and there is no other way, then so be it. Life is precious.
 

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I want to add this- in court, if you went overboard in your use of force, it will not go good for you! I have been trained on state and federal law regarding use of deadly force. I used to be a nuclear security officer. The public has no knowledge about the use of deadly force, or even what levels of force that there is.
 

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WH, I'm a vet like most on here; was drafted in 1970; got sent to Korea and then stateside; no combat. Several of my friends were in Vietnam as 18-19 year olds in 68. Two years back, one of my buddies brought his squad leader up hunting. Now I have seen picts on comp from all over I Corps, my huntin buddy an 18 year old wounded twice, and on pain meds to this day; ain't making it up. He still has an intense hatred inside.

Have you ever been shot at, close range where you see the orange flashes and hear the bullets wizz by? That will about cure any qualms one might have about shooting somebody; no joke it'll give you an intense anger.

I guess one must be on the right side in their soul and in the law of the land and that may be a split second decision.
 

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I want to add this- in court, if you went overboard in your use of force, it will not go good for you! I have been trained on state and federal law regarding use of deadly force. I used to be a nuclear security officer. The public has no knowledge about the use of deadly force, or even what levels of force that there is.
how can it be excessive force with one shot to the kill zone?
when your dead your dead
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I thank you all for posting answers and comments. aa1911 I Thank you for your comment. To fasted23 - I can only answer that it is very much about how right you were at the time. If you were not right you will never be able to sleep at night or look at yourself in the mirror unless you´re some kind of mentally deranged killer - like that kid who killed the children in a school.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Hillbilly, I share your tears. I cry when I must put down one of our critters out of mercy. I most certainly did not cry when I took out some of our enemies who were trying to kill us. My eyes were cold and calculated.
 

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To those of you that have never had to kill a human being.
Right or wrong home or at war it is not a good feeling one that will follow you for the rest of your life.
We are tought from the time we can understand THOW SHALL NOT KILL.
So when the time comes to do it the action you take will follow you forever.
If you have never done it and seen what you have done(right or wrong)you will NEVER understand what I am saying.
This is something I would not wish on ANYONE.
Mike
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Iron Eagle - life is most certainly precious. Are you willing and able to risk your life and potentially the lives of your family to defend Freedom? This is a terrible and hard choice to make. I know, I did so, I will always keep my oath to the Constitution even if it costs my life and the lives of my children who are now young adults and all the rest of my family.

I have watched this attempted coup of power, after I was finally able to come back to my own country, with great trepidation. I still do not have a reasonable projection for how our Republic can survive.

William H. Smith IV
(Will)
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Goofy - I thank you for your response. I guess you and I would be very good friends. I do hope that OldGrump reads this thread - he did inspire this conversation.
 

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Goofy - I thank you for your response. I guess you and I would be very good friends. I do hope that OldGrump reads this thread - he did inspire this conversation.
"Would be Friends"?
How about "Are becoming friends"
Or "Are friends"
That sounds better and far more accurate ;)
Mike
 

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Discussion Starter #15
"Would be Friends"?
How about "Are becoming friends"
Or "Are friends"
That sounds better and far more accurate ;)
Mike
We are friends Goofy. I truly hope someday that you get this way to visit - bring your family, I / we will supply food. If you want to come hunting you will need to make your vacation in late October and it WILL be cold here in the mountains :)
 

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Great post WHS and others and definitely some heartfelt responses.

I too am a Viet vet but did not fire a round in service.

Mine happened back home and I wonder many times at the responses of those who "imagine" having to pull the trigger on another human being.

No need to beat it to death, I will only concur with all of you, to be shot at, shot or have to return fire and injure or kill another human will most certainly and unequivocally change you forever. Period.

But one more thing comes to mind today. If you have to shoot or in any way take a life here in this country regardless of the circumstances, you WILL have to deal with our LEO when it is done.
You will have to explain and prove that you were JUSTIFIED. Iron Eagle is right on the money. People who are truly interested in self defense had better have a clear understanding of
Justified and the levels of force and when to apply.

Thanks to all who served. If you have seen the elephant "wherever" it is there every day at any moment. A smell, a sound, a particular sight or even a movement can bring it all back.

Peace my friends.

UF
 

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We are friends Goofy. I truly hope someday that you get this way to visit - bring your family, I / we will supply food. If you want to come hunting you will need to make your vacation in late October and it WILL be cold here in the mountains :)
We here have not gotten out of the 20s and in the teens to single digits at night and 24-36 inches of snow on the ground.
How much colder can you get?:D
I know it can get allot colder but cold is cold.
Mike
 

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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
Thanks for your post UncleFudd. I knew this was going to be a discussed topic when I made it.

Here in Idaho, well, I do test shooting at the tree stump in my front yard. If I have to put down one of my livestock with my .38, nobody will call the Sheriff. (I had to shoot a sick goat last week.......) We live in an entire county of well over a 1000 square miles, we are also over a mile high in the sky. We have a wee bit over 2000 people in our county. Our county jail has 6 jail cells. Our 'City' has 196 people. Our county seat six miles down the road has 996 people. This is the part of America where if you don't know what you are doing,, somebody else certainly does and can help you out by telling you what you are doing! :) I am the only computer engineer and repair guy within 80 miles and I am cheap for fixing computers. I WILL NOT rip a customer off. The next nearest computer repair is 80 miles away, with the gas round trip ... I charge 1/5 of what they charge 80 miles away and I guarantee my fixes for a minimum of 30 days. My customers save a great deal of gas plus the difference in price for the fix. Not only that, but the fix is local, so it is faster.

I will never get rich with this work - I am making a basic living and my wife and I do live below the poverty level here in the US after having moved here from Finland. Do we ask for or collect welfare? NO, Are we on Obozos 'freebie food stamps?" NO. We will NEVER take a handout from the government - we would rather die than do so!
 

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Thanks for your post UncleFudd. I knew this was going to be a discussed topic when I made it.

Here in Idaho, well, I do test shooting at the tree stump in my front yard. If I have to put down one of my livestock with my .38, nobody will call the Sheriff. (I had to shoot a sick goat last week.......) We live in an entire county of well over a 1000 square miles, we are also over a mile high in the sky. We have a wee bit over 2000 people in our county. Our county jail has 6 jail cells. Our 'City' has 196 people. Our county seat six miles down the road has 996 people. This is the part of America where if you don't know what you are doing,, somebody else certainly does and can help you out by telling you what you are doing! :) I am the only computer engineer and repair guy within 80 miles and I am cheap for fixing computers. I WILL NOT rip a customer off. 80 miles away, with the gas round trip ... charge 1/5 of what they charge 80 miles away and I guarantee my fixes for a minimum of 30 days.

Wow:eek:
You have a jail. around here they keep you in the back of the cop car(there is only 1 in our town and he is part time)intill a deputy can pick you up and bring you to the county jail.
Mike
 

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I want to add this- in court, if you went overboard in your use of force, it will not go good for you! I have been trained on state and federal law regarding use of deadly force. I used to be a nuclear security officer. The public has no knowledge about the use of deadly force, or even what levels of force that there is.
First, I want to say that you are dead on! Folks, if you haven't talked to your DA, then you really need to do so! No LEO gets to make the call on if a shooting was justifiable, or not. That's the DA's job, and these folks don't like LEO's messing with their authority! Taking another persons life is no small thing. To do so requires a certain mind set, and then you get to live the rest of your life with the fact that you did take another life. I carry at all times, and pray that I never, ever have to pull a gun on another man again! I have not had to shoot anyone yet, and I don't want to. I have seen men die, and not just in car wrecks either. There lies the body of another person, a person who had the same desires in life that you do. That person was loved, and loved in return. That person had a soul, just like you do! He/she had dreams, wants, and feelings. There but for the grace of God, go I!
 
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