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Kdubya
Kdubya
Posts: 4
(2/21/01 9:34:46 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del All To Moly or Not to Moly
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gee, I sure like breaking in new boards!
Gang - I was impressed a couple years ago with all the hype on moly coated bullets and bores. Decided it was just the ticket for what I wanted to do in the long days of heat here in Ariz. and would really benefit my shooting program. Now I'm begining to wonder if it is worth all the hassle. What do you think - anyone else using the stuff?
The bores are fairly cured now, and if they were good, clean bores to start with, the cleanup time and effort seems to be less. On some of the older rifles, I still have copper stain oozing out for days on end. Some people swear by the Outer's Foul Out system, however, I've got 2 of them and can't get very good results with them. Just have to use more elbow grease, solvents, nylon brushes (haven't stuck a bronze brush in the bores in a long time) and patches. Always try to have the last bit of copper stain gone prior to re-treating with moly patches, just before shooting. Having read that moly can attack the bore if left for long periods, I apply a coat of fast drying penetrant oil when storing in the vault before shooting.
I guess the bottom line is - sure seems to be a lot of work and mess. Haven't seen that much gain in the accuracy department, but did notice it takes more powder to attain the same velocity vs uncoated bores and bullets. I worry about moly buildup in streaks and patches down the bore in time, so the rifles really get scrubbed between benchrest sessions.
Maybe I'm being too impatient, but I'm giving serious thoughts to going back to plain ol' uncoated bullets and nice, shiny bores.
Keep off the Ridgeline!!
Tac401
Administrator
Posts: 49
(2/21/01 10:18:50 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: To Moly or Not to Moly
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I haven't experemented with the Moly stuff yet however, I
was going to try the stuff that you coat the bullets with,
is Moly similar to what the coating on the Black Talons
had on them?
Tac
Kdubya
Kdubya
Posts: 5
(2/21/01 11:07:28 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: To Moly or Not to Moly
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TAC -
I'm not sure what the coating is on the Winchester or Barnes bullets - it's something that gets baked on, not just sprayed or wiped on.
The stuff I use comes in a powder form. You put the bullets in a tumbler bowl (that won't be used for anything else again!) with the measured powder, then let it run for a few hours. They say a couple hours, however, found that to be unsatisfactory. Then it is a matter of shaking any excess off (Momma's tea sifter works great, if she doesn't catch you and you can hide it in the gunroom), then loading in the case. Naturally, your hands get coated in the process, along with everything you touch! Tried using tweezers to pick up and seat the bullets prior to being shoved up the bullet seater die - doesn't work that well for me, but then again, I never laid claim to perfect coordination, either.
I've never tried the spray moly, other than to carefully hit a spot or two in the action for lubricity - that works great!
When swabbing down the bores, I use a liquid moly from Midway that comes in a squeeze dispenser bottle and apply directly to the patch, then short stroke it down the bore, apply more after exiting the muzzle, and short stroke back to breech. Let it sit for a couple of hours for the aromatics to evaporate, then run another clean patch to remove excess. Like I say, this doesn't happen until the night before the shooting.
Keep off the Ridgeline!!
Tac401
Administrator
Posts: 50
(2/21/01 11:57:06 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: To Moly or Not to Moly
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was wondering if the process would be good for a carry
gun.
Tac
Kdubya
Kdubya
Posts: 6
(2/23/01 4:23:20 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: To Moly or Not to Moly
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dunno, Tac -
It certainly should ease the cleaning after shooting jacketed bullets - don't know what effect it would have on lead slugs, but then again, doubt seriously if anything other than jacketed HP's would be carried.
It takes a bit to condition the bore. Need to start with as pristine clean bore as possible, then follow directions of the moly lube manufacturer.
The stuff provided by Win and Barnes appears to be a teflon coating. With a cured barrel, these should work fairly well. I wouldn't use any home coated bullets because of the coating rubbing off in the cartridge holders.
Might give consideration to factory loads for carry and using home coated for practice - be a lot cheaper that way!
Ken
Keep off the Ridgeline!!
TYRVR
Moderator
Posts: 48
(3/13/01 8:12:46 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: To Moly or Not to Moly
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't know if any body here is old enough to remember Alberts/Taurus swaged lead bullets from the mid 80s Jerry Alberts made and marketed A moly/graphite coated line of bullets, they were accurate and cheap, but A divorce ended His career, You could gain 50 F.P.S. from using His bullets on Chronograph,no leading until somewhere around 1200 F.P.S. with soft swaged bullets, wish someone would market them again,
(His Wife took up with A Pro Wrestler named Rick Flair,)
Kdubya
Moderator
Posts: 31
(3/18/01 11:09:55 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: To Moly or Not to Moly
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've seen several different bullet manufacturers turning out coated lead bullets now - haven't tried any of them yet.
You're right, Tye - I noticed a 100-200 fps drop in velocity with my various rifle loads (most of which were loaded around 3000 fps originally) using the moly coated bullets. Had to increase the powder levels accordingly to get back to where I wanted the velocities to be. That's another negative for moly coating, in my book. Another is that MOST moly coatings are corrosive if left in the bore for any length of time. I scrub the dickens out of mine after shooting, then run a good penetrating oil in. Only moly prep the bore just prior to shooting. Using uncoated slugs, I normally check the zero with 5 rounds just before going on the hunting trip and leave the bore fouled until after the hunt is over. Can't do that with most moly compounds, especially if the weather is damp or wet.
The only redeeming factor for moly seems to be lowered chamber pressures with equal velocity loadings. That has great merit here in the desert when the summer tempratures get rather warm. I would like to keep the powder charges the same year 'round and not have to jockey them for the seasons. When using uncoated bullets, I've really noticed a velocity jump of approx. 200 fps with corresponding pressure signs when shooting loads developed in the winter/spring and then shooting in the summer.
Keep off the Ridgeline!!
davem3
Member
Posts: 5
(7/13/01 1:09:02 am)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: To Moly or Not to Moly
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ihave a rotary tumbler so I use an extra cly. with moly & steel shot (bb's) then put the bullets in a tube sock & run them back & forth to remove excess. I can't tell any major improvement in accuracy and am about ready to give it up. Probably my homemade tumbler & methods are the real problem. Only real improvement was in .22LR - dumped 2 boxes in & tumbled for 10 min.--Don't know about accuracy but the empty cases sure did extract nice!
TYRVR
Moderator
Posts: 196
(7/13/01 5:18:42 am)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: To Moly or Not to Moly
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
KW, I have not had enough time to do an in-depth analysis /comparison, but in the rifles in which I've used the Moly/Kote bullets, have shown dramatic gains in accuracy and ease of cleaning,the first was an AR-10, and the other was A 100+year old Krag/Jorgenson, the AR was broken in with Moly/Kote bullets using St.Clair Intnl.s instuctions for breaking in A new Bbl. with Moly,and the Krag was set up by using St.Clair's instructions for conditioning older barrels, and while I am thinking of it, there is A wax You can apply to Moly/Kote bullets that will eliminate the mess, but some BR shooters have expressed problems with Carnauba build up in Bbl.
My advice is try it, and if it works....Great! and if it doesn't work.....Great! You've still had fun shooting,
Ol' Tye,
(I still remember the original "Molly Bee", from Ernie Ford's T.V.show, now She was A Beauty!)
If Heaven ain't got A loading bench.....I'm going to Hell,
kdubaz
Moderator
Posts: 243
(7/13/01 12:09:57 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: To Moly or Not to Moly
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Darn, Tye -
Thought I was the only person alive that remembered the Ernie Ford show - One of my most favorite male singers! "16 Tons" still knocks around in the brain pan.
I have determined to give up on Moly Cote - never found any real advantages with the firearms I shoot and the preparation/handling/cleanup just not worth the effort.
I've been turned on to a new product out of Calif. made by Microlon, called "Gun Juice". It is an oil-less lubricant that comes as a liquid (highly aromatic) that dries to a dry film. Was very dubious at first of its acclaimed benefits, however, after some usage, now feel its pretty good stuff! Recommeds the bore be cleaned of previous lubricants to extent possible (I used patches of Gun Scrubber followed by dry patches) then coat bore with liberal saturated patch. Let dry, then fire a round. Shot should be above normal POI. Use saturated patch and dry patch to clean, run wet patch and shoot again. Continue process until shots stop climbing and begin to group. Bore is now conditioned. Clean normally to remove powder/copper fouling and wet patch bore before storing.
Several rifles I have treated thus far have greatly improved accuracy with standard copper bullets and cleaning seems a tad easier, also. You can use this stuff to coat the entire rifle (wipe down all exposed parts, bolt included, with last bore patch - stuff really goes a long way!) for a dry protective coating. It is sorta costly, but I think it is something that has great potential.
Keep below the ridgeline!
shooter22
V.I.P. Member
Posts: 176
(7/14/01 1:19:31 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: To Moly or Not to Moly
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have not read every word of the posts, but had a question. Is anybody using both bore coating moly and coated bullets? I saw an article with a guy doing pressure and velocity research with moly. He tested without moly totally, barrel coated with non coated bullets, clean barrel, with caoted bullets and, coated barrel with coated bullets. His findings stated that the velocity and pressures were the same in the uncoated barrel with non coated bullets as that with the coated barrel and coated bullets. Strange but that is the results. He then found reduced pressure and velocity with the coated barrel and plain bullet as well as the coated bullets and plain barrel. I would think that once the barrel is treated by administering moly or firecoated(shooting coated bullets), very light cleaning is needed. Some data has even stated that solvents can break the moly coating and render it useless. If you have heard of differing data, I would be happy to hear it, as I too am still trying to figure this moly thing out. I have found that my guns like the treated bullets better than treated barrels.
SHOOTER22
eapples
Member
Posts: 6
(1/30/03 4:24:37 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: To Moly or Not to Moly
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's a bit of an old post, but I felt compelled to respond.
I moly coated all my lead bullets (38 special and 45acp) because I found that it made cleaning and lead removal go easier.
I did not focus on accuracy, because it's not a problem for me. I still have a long way to go with the basics of trigger control and sight alignment.
Eapples <;-)
Dry Powder
Member
Posts: 10
(2/3/03 2:23:44 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: To Moly or Not to Moly
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The principal advantages Marketed with MolyBullets initially
1) Easier cleaning ................ Not true and adds
complications if you do use
some copper coated bullets
2)Higher Velocities ................ Questionable but generally
more powder for slower
speeds
3)More Accurate ................... Most benchresters back to
copper (some still love Moly)
4)More expensive .................. Good for the industry
My experience on two guns was not positive and I am
skeptical about any ... new .. coatings I am going to wait.
kdub01
*TFF Senior Staff*
Posts: 1959
(2/3/03 3:22:10 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: To Moly or Not to Moly
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You're pretty close to my thoughts on the matter, Dry Powder -
For the expense (minimal) and the mess (maximumized) of using moly, I can't really see that much in added benefits. As you say, the less friction just increased the powder charges to pull the loads up to former velocities. The accuracy picture is yet to be determined - can't see much improvement over non-moly'd bullets. The biggest negative is the persistent buildup in the barrel which led to uneven deposits in my barrels and made cleaning a bitch.
The use of moly on cast bullets are probably of better benefit in reducing the leading. I really don't shoot enough cast bullets to make that determination, tho.
"Keep Off The Ridgeline"
Kdubya
Posts: 4
(2/21/01 9:34:46 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del All To Moly or Not to Moly
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gee, I sure like breaking in new boards!
Gang - I was impressed a couple years ago with all the hype on moly coated bullets and bores. Decided it was just the ticket for what I wanted to do in the long days of heat here in Ariz. and would really benefit my shooting program. Now I'm begining to wonder if it is worth all the hassle. What do you think - anyone else using the stuff?
The bores are fairly cured now, and if they were good, clean bores to start with, the cleanup time and effort seems to be less. On some of the older rifles, I still have copper stain oozing out for days on end. Some people swear by the Outer's Foul Out system, however, I've got 2 of them and can't get very good results with them. Just have to use more elbow grease, solvents, nylon brushes (haven't stuck a bronze brush in the bores in a long time) and patches. Always try to have the last bit of copper stain gone prior to re-treating with moly patches, just before shooting. Having read that moly can attack the bore if left for long periods, I apply a coat of fast drying penetrant oil when storing in the vault before shooting.
I guess the bottom line is - sure seems to be a lot of work and mess. Haven't seen that much gain in the accuracy department, but did notice it takes more powder to attain the same velocity vs uncoated bores and bullets. I worry about moly buildup in streaks and patches down the bore in time, so the rifles really get scrubbed between benchrest sessions.
Maybe I'm being too impatient, but I'm giving serious thoughts to going back to plain ol' uncoated bullets and nice, shiny bores.
Keep off the Ridgeline!!
Tac401
Administrator
Posts: 49
(2/21/01 10:18:50 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: To Moly or Not to Moly
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I haven't experemented with the Moly stuff yet however, I
was going to try the stuff that you coat the bullets with,
is Moly similar to what the coating on the Black Talons
had on them?
Tac
Kdubya
Kdubya
Posts: 5
(2/21/01 11:07:28 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: To Moly or Not to Moly
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TAC -
I'm not sure what the coating is on the Winchester or Barnes bullets - it's something that gets baked on, not just sprayed or wiped on.
The stuff I use comes in a powder form. You put the bullets in a tumbler bowl (that won't be used for anything else again!) with the measured powder, then let it run for a few hours. They say a couple hours, however, found that to be unsatisfactory. Then it is a matter of shaking any excess off (Momma's tea sifter works great, if she doesn't catch you and you can hide it in the gunroom), then loading in the case. Naturally, your hands get coated in the process, along with everything you touch! Tried using tweezers to pick up and seat the bullets prior to being shoved up the bullet seater die - doesn't work that well for me, but then again, I never laid claim to perfect coordination, either.
I've never tried the spray moly, other than to carefully hit a spot or two in the action for lubricity - that works great!
When swabbing down the bores, I use a liquid moly from Midway that comes in a squeeze dispenser bottle and apply directly to the patch, then short stroke it down the bore, apply more after exiting the muzzle, and short stroke back to breech. Let it sit for a couple of hours for the aromatics to evaporate, then run another clean patch to remove excess. Like I say, this doesn't happen until the night before the shooting.
Keep off the Ridgeline!!
Tac401
Administrator
Posts: 50
(2/21/01 11:57:06 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: To Moly or Not to Moly
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was wondering if the process would be good for a carry
gun.
Tac
Kdubya
Kdubya
Posts: 6
(2/23/01 4:23:20 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: To Moly or Not to Moly
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dunno, Tac -
It certainly should ease the cleaning after shooting jacketed bullets - don't know what effect it would have on lead slugs, but then again, doubt seriously if anything other than jacketed HP's would be carried.
It takes a bit to condition the bore. Need to start with as pristine clean bore as possible, then follow directions of the moly lube manufacturer.
The stuff provided by Win and Barnes appears to be a teflon coating. With a cured barrel, these should work fairly well. I wouldn't use any home coated bullets because of the coating rubbing off in the cartridge holders.
Might give consideration to factory loads for carry and using home coated for practice - be a lot cheaper that way!
Ken
Keep off the Ridgeline!!
TYRVR
Moderator
Posts: 48
(3/13/01 8:12:46 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: To Moly or Not to Moly
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't know if any body here is old enough to remember Alberts/Taurus swaged lead bullets from the mid 80s Jerry Alberts made and marketed A moly/graphite coated line of bullets, they were accurate and cheap, but A divorce ended His career, You could gain 50 F.P.S. from using His bullets on Chronograph,no leading until somewhere around 1200 F.P.S. with soft swaged bullets, wish someone would market them again,
(His Wife took up with A Pro Wrestler named Rick Flair,)
Kdubya
Moderator
Posts: 31
(3/18/01 11:09:55 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: To Moly or Not to Moly
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've seen several different bullet manufacturers turning out coated lead bullets now - haven't tried any of them yet.
You're right, Tye - I noticed a 100-200 fps drop in velocity with my various rifle loads (most of which were loaded around 3000 fps originally) using the moly coated bullets. Had to increase the powder levels accordingly to get back to where I wanted the velocities to be. That's another negative for moly coating, in my book. Another is that MOST moly coatings are corrosive if left in the bore for any length of time. I scrub the dickens out of mine after shooting, then run a good penetrating oil in. Only moly prep the bore just prior to shooting. Using uncoated slugs, I normally check the zero with 5 rounds just before going on the hunting trip and leave the bore fouled until after the hunt is over. Can't do that with most moly compounds, especially if the weather is damp or wet.
The only redeeming factor for moly seems to be lowered chamber pressures with equal velocity loadings. That has great merit here in the desert when the summer tempratures get rather warm. I would like to keep the powder charges the same year 'round and not have to jockey them for the seasons. When using uncoated bullets, I've really noticed a velocity jump of approx. 200 fps with corresponding pressure signs when shooting loads developed in the winter/spring and then shooting in the summer.
Keep off the Ridgeline!!
davem3
Member
Posts: 5
(7/13/01 1:09:02 am)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: To Moly or Not to Moly
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ihave a rotary tumbler so I use an extra cly. with moly & steel shot (bb's) then put the bullets in a tube sock & run them back & forth to remove excess. I can't tell any major improvement in accuracy and am about ready to give it up. Probably my homemade tumbler & methods are the real problem. Only real improvement was in .22LR - dumped 2 boxes in & tumbled for 10 min.--Don't know about accuracy but the empty cases sure did extract nice!
TYRVR
Moderator
Posts: 196
(7/13/01 5:18:42 am)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: To Moly or Not to Moly
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
KW, I have not had enough time to do an in-depth analysis /comparison, but in the rifles in which I've used the Moly/Kote bullets, have shown dramatic gains in accuracy and ease of cleaning,the first was an AR-10, and the other was A 100+year old Krag/Jorgenson, the AR was broken in with Moly/Kote bullets using St.Clair Intnl.s instuctions for breaking in A new Bbl. with Moly,and the Krag was set up by using St.Clair's instructions for conditioning older barrels, and while I am thinking of it, there is A wax You can apply to Moly/Kote bullets that will eliminate the mess, but some BR shooters have expressed problems with Carnauba build up in Bbl.
My advice is try it, and if it works....Great! and if it doesn't work.....Great! You've still had fun shooting,
Ol' Tye,
(I still remember the original "Molly Bee", from Ernie Ford's T.V.show, now She was A Beauty!)
If Heaven ain't got A loading bench.....I'm going to Hell,
kdubaz
Moderator
Posts: 243
(7/13/01 12:09:57 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: To Moly or Not to Moly
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Darn, Tye -
Thought I was the only person alive that remembered the Ernie Ford show - One of my most favorite male singers! "16 Tons" still knocks around in the brain pan.
I have determined to give up on Moly Cote - never found any real advantages with the firearms I shoot and the preparation/handling/cleanup just not worth the effort.
I've been turned on to a new product out of Calif. made by Microlon, called "Gun Juice". It is an oil-less lubricant that comes as a liquid (highly aromatic) that dries to a dry film. Was very dubious at first of its acclaimed benefits, however, after some usage, now feel its pretty good stuff! Recommeds the bore be cleaned of previous lubricants to extent possible (I used patches of Gun Scrubber followed by dry patches) then coat bore with liberal saturated patch. Let dry, then fire a round. Shot should be above normal POI. Use saturated patch and dry patch to clean, run wet patch and shoot again. Continue process until shots stop climbing and begin to group. Bore is now conditioned. Clean normally to remove powder/copper fouling and wet patch bore before storing.
Several rifles I have treated thus far have greatly improved accuracy with standard copper bullets and cleaning seems a tad easier, also. You can use this stuff to coat the entire rifle (wipe down all exposed parts, bolt included, with last bore patch - stuff really goes a long way!) for a dry protective coating. It is sorta costly, but I think it is something that has great potential.
Keep below the ridgeline!
shooter22
V.I.P. Member
Posts: 176
(7/14/01 1:19:31 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: To Moly or Not to Moly
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have not read every word of the posts, but had a question. Is anybody using both bore coating moly and coated bullets? I saw an article with a guy doing pressure and velocity research with moly. He tested without moly totally, barrel coated with non coated bullets, clean barrel, with caoted bullets and, coated barrel with coated bullets. His findings stated that the velocity and pressures were the same in the uncoated barrel with non coated bullets as that with the coated barrel and coated bullets. Strange but that is the results. He then found reduced pressure and velocity with the coated barrel and plain bullet as well as the coated bullets and plain barrel. I would think that once the barrel is treated by administering moly or firecoated(shooting coated bullets), very light cleaning is needed. Some data has even stated that solvents can break the moly coating and render it useless. If you have heard of differing data, I would be happy to hear it, as I too am still trying to figure this moly thing out. I have found that my guns like the treated bullets better than treated barrels.
SHOOTER22
eapples
Member
Posts: 6
(1/30/03 4:24:37 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: To Moly or Not to Moly
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's a bit of an old post, but I felt compelled to respond.
I moly coated all my lead bullets (38 special and 45acp) because I found that it made cleaning and lead removal go easier.
I did not focus on accuracy, because it's not a problem for me. I still have a long way to go with the basics of trigger control and sight alignment.
Eapples <;-)
Dry Powder
Member
Posts: 10
(2/3/03 2:23:44 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: To Moly or Not to Moly
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The principal advantages Marketed with MolyBullets initially
1) Easier cleaning ................ Not true and adds
complications if you do use
some copper coated bullets
2)Higher Velocities ................ Questionable but generally
more powder for slower
speeds
3)More Accurate ................... Most benchresters back to
copper (some still love Moly)
4)More expensive .................. Good for the industry
My experience on two guns was not positive and I am
skeptical about any ... new .. coatings I am going to wait.
kdub01
*TFF Senior Staff*
Posts: 1959
(2/3/03 3:22:10 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: To Moly or Not to Moly
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You're pretty close to my thoughts on the matter, Dry Powder -
For the expense (minimal) and the mess (maximumized) of using moly, I can't really see that much in added benefits. As you say, the less friction just increased the powder charges to pull the loads up to former velocities. The accuracy picture is yet to be determined - can't see much improvement over non-moly'd bullets. The biggest negative is the persistent buildup in the barrel which led to uneven deposits in my barrels and made cleaning a bitch.
The use of moly on cast bullets are probably of better benefit in reducing the leading. I really don't shoot enough cast bullets to make that determination, tho.
"Keep Off The Ridgeline"
