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This thread was started last week but somehow went MIA after awhile and is somewhere in the Twilight Zone now . If you did reply to it please repost your reply . Was some good info I would like to reread . Will try to repeat what I posted. After looking over my modest bullet collection I got interested in my Pinfire bullet and it seems metallic cartridges were used quite a bit more in Europe then here in US . I also was talking about how while we were using the Trapdoor the Swiss were using a repeater with a mid caliber round with the Swiss Vetterli rifle . There was some talk about the 71/84 Mauser with the 43 Mauser or 11 mm Mauser and about how I made brass from 45/90 brass and the process . Cap&Ball Chanell on youtube has a good video on that subject . If there was something I posted and someone wants me to repost it say something , I can't remember everything I did post . I am lucky I can remember what I had for lunch .

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I'll try...

The pin fire system goes back to the 1830's and was developed by a Frenchman named Lefaucheux who also developed a break action to fire them, operated by what was then called a "key" under the forearm to lock and unlock the action. The pin fire was developed for rifle use but not to the degree it was utilized in shotguns. The British improved on the Lefaucheux action in the 1860's and it became known as the "Jones Underlever". The operating knob was moved to a loop under the trigger guard and was made into the early 1900's.

In the previous thread a poster mentioned the Rollin White patent which is the bored through revolver cylinder. Smith & Wesson acquired the patent and the first self contained metallic cartridge, the 22 Short, was developed by S&W I believe in 1855. US development of self contained metallic cartridges sat stagnant for nearly two decades.

In Europe, in Prussia, the development of the Dreyse needle gun in either the late 1850's or early 1860's enabled Prussia to defeat Austri in 1866, removing the then Austro-Hungarian empire from influence in greater Germany. Prussia defeated France in the 1871 Franco/Prussian war. After that, under the leadership of Otto von Bismark Germany became the nation we are basically familiar with today. In 1871 Germany/Prussia adopted the mostly Mannlicher Mod 71 military rifle in 11.15 X 60R, a cartridge often called the 43 Mauser. 2 years before the US adopted the 45-70 and 45 Colt though there was the stop gap adoption of the Allin conversion in 50-70. As with most military cartridges, the 43 Mauser was quickly adopted and modified by the sporting industry.

Development puttered along about equally between Europe and the US until 1888 when the entire world was put on notice by the development and adoption of smokeless powder and a small bor, high intensity, (for the day), 8mm Lebel. This is when the US started to really fall behind. Not so much the military but our sporting industry did not jump on the smokeless powder/cartridge development with the same speed and fervor Europe did, especially Germany.

Germany adopted the 8 X 57 in 1888 which began a long history of necking the case up and down , lengthening and shortening it. The smaller bores such as the 7 X 57, 6.5 X 57 and 6 X 57 caught on in Europe quickly. To read current publications one would think the US invented 6.5mm....except it was popular in Europe pre-1900 and the Swede's adopted the 6.5 X 55 cartridge in 1896 and Mannlicher developed the 6.5 X 54 pre-1900 which was later adopted by the Greeks and others. There's easily a dozen cartridges that would leave the vaunted 6.5 Creedmoor in their dust if they benefitted from the same development....and several will without further development.

The US sporting firearms industry lagged behind Europe until after WWI. The popular story is that returning Doughboy's having experienced the 30-06, 45 ACP and faced the 8 X 57 and other Central Powers smokeless cartridges wanted the same performance in their sporting rounds. I believe this was the beginning of the Golden Age of cartridge development in the US. By the time the 1930's arrived the US was the equal of any nation on earth in cartridge development. There's been a pile of cartridges come out after WWII and, some good ones.....with the caveat that they had pretty much already been developed shortly before 1900 to about the end of WWII. Take the 280/7mm Express Remington. New in 1955....except that is nearly identical to the 7 X 64 Brenneke introduced in 1917. 6mm Remington new shortly after the Winchester 243? Well...not exactly. The 6mm Rem is the 257 Roberts necked to 6mm. The Roberts is the 7 X 57 necked to 25 cal. Paul Mauser necked the 7 X 57 to 6mm in 1899. Oh...the great 30-03/30-06? Merely an 8 X 57 lengthened 6mm and necked down to 308. In fact, after WWI Springfield Armory had to pay Mauser $1.00 per rifle royalty for patent infringement, a case decided in court in the US. Anyone familiar with both the 98 and its predecessor's and the Springfield 1903 cannot deny the outright copying of the Mauser.

Truth be told, most popular cartridges today can trace their lineage to two cartridges, neither American. They are the 8 X 57 Mauser and the 375 H&H. Of course there is separate developments, the 220 Swift from the 6mm Lee/Navy. The 222 head size...except that it is a scaled down '06 which derived ultimately from the 8 X 57. The study of cartridges and their history is rich enough to keep a fella busy for a lifetime.

The handguns take a completely different tack with Europe jumping on the semi-auto action much earlier and enthusiastically than the US where the revolver, in the civilian world, reigned supreme until into the late 1970's/early1980's.
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