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Discussion Starter #1
I have a friend that is new to shooting. He comes over once a month or so to shoot, I'm trying to teach him how to handle his XD in 9mm. He says he wants to learn to protect himself, but he won't practice! Saturday we were shooting at an 8" paper plate at 35 yards. Shooting off a rest he was missing the plate to the right, left, top, and bottom! He was hitting the plate, but he couldn't do it with any consistancy. What I was attempting to teach him was trigger control. After two double stack mags from him, I put 5 rounds in the pate that you could almost cover with a silver dollar (still using the rest). He understood then that the problem was him, not the gun. I moved from his pistol to a .22. An old Colt Woodsman that has a hair trigger, and he did just fine shooting form the rest at 35 yards. I've suggested that he practice dry firing the gun at home, but he says that he doesn't have the time to do this, and even though I've shown him how, he still don't get it! Being frustrated at this point I went to the house and got the shorty auto shotgun, and let him shoot it at the paper plates at 35 yards. He was impressed with what a shotgun could do loaded with 00 Buck, and slugs! Should I encourage him to forget the XD, and go with the shotgun? Keep working with him and his pistol? Or what? Sorry I didn't take pictures, but I will the next time.
 

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Carver as an instructor / teacher i would say give up on the sidearms. He has a block that will seldom be overcome. ( all in his head ) I also wouldnt stress the auto loader shotgun because it doesnt give enough time between fired rounds to shoot again or not. If you are still being hounded by your friend about him learning self defence then you may want to ask, is it for home defence or on the street personnal defence. I read your post twice and i didnt get a hint as to which one it was. Since he says he doesnt have time to shoot/practice and if it's for home defence again not knowing home/to personal then get your hands on a 20 gage pump and demenstrate that with double 00 buck or slugs. But remind him of over penatration with slugs and go with buckshot. And my friend, remember there is nothing in the crimminal world that sounds more scary than chick-chick of a pump shotgun action being accuated.

I have some special training things that you can help him with. But your friend, he has to be willing to put in some time and it doesn't seam he is willing. I will help you with what can be shown and down when you have more answers.

bigdad5
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
I agree with you on his lack willingness to take the time to learn. He does not have a Concealed carry permitt, so his concern is HD. I've told him several times that a hand gun is not the best choice for a HD gun. I think that after shooting the shot gun, he is re-thinking having a hand gun in the home for SD. As to your statement: "I also wouldnt stress the auto loader shotgun because it doesnt give enough time between fired rounds to shoot again or not." I don't understand! A semi-auto shot gun will fire faster than a pump, and all that junk about the sound of racking a pump shotgun will scare the bad guy is just that, junk! However, that is just the opinion of a 65 year old man that has spent his life hunting, and shooting. I have fired many shotguns, and the Old Winchester issued to the troups during WWII had no trigger disconnect. That gun would fire as fast as you could rack the slide, while holding down the trigger. The problem with the pump is that a newbie, under stress, like my friend, can short stroke a pump, and render the gun usless. I'm thinking of having him take a course from someone else, if he will, maybe someone else might have a chance to get into his head about trigger pull/trigger control, or making a better choice for a HD firearm.
 

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Well sir i have also spend a life time of shooting and more than have of it teaching as well. The one true constant i have found is, " you can lead a horse to water but you can't make em drink". I will be 60 in July but i don't think age has anything to do with this topic.. LOL

bigdad5
 

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You can lead a horse to water, but you cant make em drink. You have done your job, the rest is up to him. If his familys safety and security is not enough reason to practice and get proficient, you cant help him. All you can do is continue to encourage him to get better and hope that he will somehow take heed.....sorry bigdad, I was typing the same quote as you at the same time as you......
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
I threw age in there because I don't have a certificate for teaching others. The autoloading shot gun is not only faster, but there will be less felt recoil, as some of the gases are used to cycle the action. Have you ever fired both guns to see which is faster? I have, and I've raced other shooters with pumps! Thanks guys! I was considering letting him go his way on this, but your post have help me decide to drop the training. Causual shooting, and eating, form now on.
 

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Carver, I think the shotgun referance was actually talking about giving yourself time to decide whether to shoot again or not and not the cycling speed. Could be wrong though. You might be right. I just didn't read it that way. I've been known to make a mistake here, and there! :D

If the fella isnt willing to put in the effort, there's nothing you can do to help him aside from just pointers if he happens to be out with you shooting. The shotgun is probably the best bet for him.
 

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Carver, is it possible you are being a bit hard on him?
While hitting an 8" plate at 35 yards is a commendable goal, it is more accuracy than is required for any Home Defense situation -
How about a silhouette at 5 to 10 yards?
Putting a full magazine full into the 10 zones should help to build his confidence, and might build a desire for even further improvement.
 

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pistol = sight alignment + trigger control (+ tons of [quality] practice)

maybe some old school dime/washer drills will help him out breaking the shot?


if he's not willing to even dryfire, he is not serious enough it would seem, I would also be pretty frustrated.

Now the auto faster than a pump caught my eye; a pump can be faster than an auto depending on who's behind it!
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Carver, is it possible you are being a bit hard on him?
While hitting an 8" plate at 35 yards is a commendable goal, it is more accuracy than is required for any Home Defense situation -
How about a silhouette at 5 to 10 yards?
Putting a full magazine full into the 10 zones should help to build his confidence, and might build a desire for even further improvement.
You are 100% correct! We started out shooting a B27 at 15', because I thought I could help him out some. But his shooting was terrible, and wasn't getting any better after several sessions, so I tryed to focus on his trigger control. That's when I decided to move out to 35 yards, and shoot off a rest. Trigger control mistakes show up real quick when you add distance to the target.
 

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You are 100% correct! We started out shooting a B27 at 15', because I thought I could help him out some. But his shooting was terrible, and wasn't getting any better after several sessions, so I tryed to focus on his trigger control. That's when I decided to move out to 35 yards, and shoot off a rest. Trigger control mistakes show up real quick when you add distance to the target.
Actually, I kind of figured you would have thought of that - -

Hmmm.

All I can think of is that you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

If he simply refuses to do anything to improve his accuracy, perhaps teach him how to throw both hands in the air and scream "Please don't shoot me!!"
 

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counyry101 that was the point you " hit it right on the head " as they say. I was trying to be polite , kind and a gentelman guess i need to learn more. lol Yes the thought process must include time to decide shoot or not shoot again and with an auto loader mistakes can be made.
bigdad5
 

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Discussion Starter #13
counyry101 that was the point you " hit it right on the head " as they say. I was trying to be polite , kind and a gentelman guess i need to learn more. lol Yes the thought process must include time to decide shoot or not shoot again and with an auto loader mistakes can be made.
bigdad5
I agree, and apologize for reading your post wrong. I do that sometimes! I think it might be my dyslexia. :D
 

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Carver, if he was my student, and had limited time on the range I wooud work with him as he had time at short range(5 to10 yards) with a 22 that has a trigger pull with a little effort involved.Hair triggers are not going to tranlate very well into shooting a dao trigger. Work on him with regards to stance,grip, trigger control just as if he would be shooting a center fire handgun, but with the 22. Get him the basics down pat, then let him shoot something with more recoil. Most of the time just few range sesions like this will bring them around. And if he can't get it teach him to speed dial 911 and hide under the bed.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Carver, if he was my student, and had limited time on the range I wooud work with him as he had time at short range(5 to10 yards) with a 22 that has a trigger pull with a little effort involved.Hair triggers are not going to tranlate very well into shooting a dao trigger. Work on him with regards to stance,grip, trigger control just as if he would be shooting a center fire handgun, but with the 22. Get him the basics down pat, then let him shoot something with more recoil. Most of the time just few range sesions like this will bring them around. And if he can't get it teach him to speed dial 911 and hide under the bed.
Tried that too, with a Taurus PT22! I just wanted him to see that he could do it.
 

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Well then the only other thing I would try is letting himshoot a pistol(preferably a 22) with a laser. Have him try to hold dot on target while squezing trigger, and slack off on trigger when laser works off of target. Some times this helps them see how much effect a little movement can make.
 

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Sounds like trying to train my wife. She is hopeless. Good luck.
 

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I would have to add my wifes shooting is scary. She can hit anything but the target.
 

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wow Wolfdog it isnt often someone out thinks me but i never considered a lazer having never used one. Nice Job. and wolf i agree that may be the answer for carvers friend. and to carver thanks man for admitting your misunderstanding of my post. You know my friend it takes a real man to own up to a mistake and your a real man .

bigdad5
 
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