Whats your view on the WTC firefghters statue. ( 1 2 3 )

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by ruffitt, Mar 11, 2003.

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  1. ruffitt

    ruffitt Guest

    Jan 28, 2003
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
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    (1/13/02 12:25:13 pm)
    | Edit | Del All Whats your view on the WTC firefghters statue.
    Personally I think the PC police have gone too far, not that they haven't done it before. Why can't we have an accurate depiction of what really happened ???

    Firefighters Seek Accurate Depiction of Flag Raising Heroes

    New York City firefighters outraged over Fire Department plans for a politically correct statue-tribute to three brethren who raised the American flag at Ground Zero after the 9/11 attacks are pushing to have those plans changed.

    A clay model of the tribute, based on a world famous photograph of firemen Dan McWilliams, George Johnson and William Eisengrein, won't be cast in bronze till April, after which it's slated to appear at the FDNY's Brooklyn headquarters.

    In the model unveiled at FDNY MetroTech headquarters on Dec. 21, two out of three of the white fireman who actually raised the flag had been replaced by an African-American and a Hispanic.

    NewsMax.com first reported news that rank and file firefighters were outraged over the switch on Tuesday, after weeks of silence on the incendiary development from all other media outlets. (See: Racial Changes Made in Ground Zero Firefighter Tribute)

    In the four days since our initial report a firestorm of protest has erupted over the decision to alter the races of the three flag raising heroes.

    Encouraged by the burst of publicity, firefighters now hope FDNY brass will reverse the decision and cast the final version of the statue to reflect the event as it actually happened. The statue will eventually be displayed at FDNY headquarters at MetroTech Center in Brooklyn.

    An FDNY insider told NewsMax.com Saturday that if department brass decide to keep the politically correct version of the statue, FDNY rank and file will consider raising private funds for a separate statue that depicts the actual fireman shown in the photo instead of politically correct substitutes.

    "The firemen are in the talking stages because they're outraged," the source said, adding that the authentic statue would feature a plaque naming McWilliams, Johnson and Eisengrien and could be part of the proposed memorial built at Ground Zero.

    To share your opinion about the FDNY's decision to replace the real flag-raising firefighter heroes with politically correct imaginary substitutes, contact FDNY Dept. Chief Dan Nigro at:

    Fire Department of New York
    Chief of Department Dan Nigro
    9 Metro Tech Center
    Brooklyn, NY 11201

    The FDNY currently offers no email address for public comment. NewsMax.com is not disclosing Chief Nigro's phone number so as not to disrupt crucial FDNY business.

    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
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    (1/13/02 12:29:29 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Whats your view on the WTC firefghters statue.
    " P C MY A$Z" oppsssss

    Edited by: Zigzag2 at: 1/13/02 12:38:57 pm

    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
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    (1/13/02 12:30:13 pm)
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    Re: Whats your view on the WTC firefghters statue.
    If the statue is cast in bronze wont they all be, well, bronze-colored?

    The story needs to go a bit further and publicize who brought the issue up in the first place.

    (As a side note, the Chief's name does add a bit of a twist doesnt it??)

    We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!

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    (1/13/02 12:40:14 pm)
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    FDNY Whistleblower: Media Nixed News of Race Changes to 9/11 Flag Statue

    Retired New York City firefighter Kevin O'Kane says that reporters from all the major news organizations were present when a clay sculpture of three of his FDNY brethren raising the American flag over Ground Zero was unveiled on Dec. 20 in Brooklyn.

    But only one reporter bothered to mention that the racial makeup of the trio had been altered, he told NewsMax.com in an e-mail complaining about the cover-up on Monday.

    For the next three weeks the mainstream press breathed not a word of the fraudulent tribute, even as firefighter O'Kane struggled in vain to get coverage of what he and many of his brethren felt was a politically correct travesty that cheated three rightful FDNY heroes of their due.

    "I called one newspaper after another," O'Kane told NewsMax.com Friday. "Nobody wanted to cover this story."

    On Tuesday NewsMax.com broke the story of the hero firefighter's complaint, how he and his brethren were livid that higher-ups in the FDNY had decided to tamper with reality to reflect not the world-famous photograph of the three Caucasian firemen who actually performed the deed, but a more politically correct version that replaced two of the white firemen with an African-American and a Hispanic. (See: Racial Changes Made in Ground Zero Firefighter Tribute.)

    After the NewsMax report, the story caught fire on talk radio in venues like Al Rantel's KABC broadcast in Los Angeles. By Thursday the Weekly Standard had its own version of the story on its website, where it was picked up by Fox News Channel's Brit Hume.

    But it took till Friday for the story to explode, when WABC radio's Sean Hannity featured a full hour interview with firefighter O'Kane and civil rights activist Lawrence Guyot, who argued that replacing the white firefighters was a good idea. (O'Kane and Guyot will continue the debate on Fox News Channel's cablecast "Hannity & Colmes" Friday night.)

    Minutes after Hannity's interview ended, the Associated Press picked up the news that NewsMax.com reported three days earlier, sending the story ricocheting around newsrooms all across the country.

    "Given that those who died were of all races and all ethnicities and that the statue was to be symbolic of those sacrifices, ultimately a decision was made to honor no one in particular," FDNY spokesman Frank Gribbon told the AP.

    But the three firefighters who actually raised the flag - Dan McWilliams, George Johnson and Billy Eisengrein - said through their lawyer that they were "disappointed."

    "It's become something political as opposed to historical," attorney Bill Kelly told the AP.

    The bogus sculpture unveiled in December will be cast in bronze in April and put on permanent display at FDNY headquarters unless enough public pressure is brought to bear, O'Kane told NewsMax.

    "My fear is that the word won't get out and that this fraud will be erected and future generations will come to regard this politically correct sculpture as a historic fact."

    V.I.P. Member
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    (1/13/02 12:45:07 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Whats your view on the WTC firefghters statue.
    Bondai: I was in NYC the first Sunday in Nov. for the custom knife show (which was xcellent) and walking down 7th ave to the port autority bus terminal there was a mayby 4ft high statue of a NY fireman down on one knee with his head in his hands as if in prayer. It was on a small trailer and had a very short explanation printed on white background. People would stop and lower their heads, cross themselves, and walkl quietly away. Some folks would leave a single flower at the base. There was an off-duty fireman there to answer any questions, but very few people spoke to him. They just seemed to want to gaze at the statue for a moment, then continue on. IT WAS EXTREMELY MOVING!! At that moment I felt close to these fine fallen heroes, altho I did not know any. GOD, am I glad that I am an AMERICAN!!


    the real fredneck
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    (1/13/02 1:51:36 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Whats your view on the WTC firefghters statue.
    If I recall the picture of the Marines raising the flag on Mt.Suribachi was a staged event not under hostile fire so is detailed historical accuracy the most important part in the selection of a memorial? 100 years from now will the ethnicity of those memorialized be of any signifiance in the melting pot that is NYC? The NYFD has a long tradition of being a "family" business, you need a father, uncle, brother, alderman, etc. to get in, and one of the consequences of the 9/11 attack was they lost a significant number of their personnel that must be replaced nearly immediately. This influx of new blood will most certainly change the FDNY for better or worse or none at all in the execution of their duties. Of course in the final analysis members of FDNY should be allowed to make the selection on whatever memorial they wish to erect to honor their fallen brethern. I'm assuming they're paying for it or creating a foundation/commission in charge of it.

    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
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    (1/13/02 1:53:43 pm)
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    lets see

    three whites raised the flag

    now some are b!tching that the statue to commemorate the occasion ,should be altered to include a black and a Hispanic ,witch were not present at the actual event

    what is this world coming to?

    I guess we should change the signatures on the constitution to include a few Jews ,blacks,some Chinese and a Mexican

    also the statue of liberty needs a male counter part ,or maybe a female life-partner ,of course he/she should be racially mixed

    the "last supper" must now be air-brushed to contain a black and a Hispanic to change the event to be more politically/racially correct

    my personal opinion this kind of sh!t makes it hard not to be racist

    V.I.P. Member
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    (1/13/02 2:00:01 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Whats your view on the WTC firefghters statue.
    Gonna go against the flow, here, even though there are few who are more anti-PC than me.

    Tempest in a teacup.

    Anyone ever heard the term - "Artistic License"?

    A statue, painting, etc. doesn't always depict with 100% accuracy. I would imagine that whoever designed this statue was probably attempting to "say" many things with it - most notably how the attack on us served to unite us ALL in a common cause.

    There are plenty of photographs depicting the actual event as it happened; this statue is merely a symbol, nothing more.

    Just my .02

    Flame away, ducking for cover now!

    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
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    (1/13/02 3:40:09 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Whats your view on the WTC firefghters statue.
    I`m with GP on this one. Oh! before I forget it, the flag raising on Iwo was not staged.....the second one was.

    This continuing of PC history is sickening. If for the sake of a monument showing firefighters (ONLY) then I have no problem with it and it should!

    To change "that" very event is wrong, "that was history" and no matter how PC you want to be......those were the men that raised it and only they and their names should be present on it. They performed a selfless act, to show united support. Now the PC`ers will steal history/moments, frozen in time. THIS MAKES ME SICK!!!!!

    V.I.P. Forum Host
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    (1/13/02 4:29:11 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Whats your view on the WTC firefghters statue.
    GP I'm with you all the way on this one except for the racist part. It has nothing to do with being a racist but everything to do with being a realist. You see it for what it is and nothing more.

    Different name
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    (1/13/02 4:37:56 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Whats your view on the WTC firefghters statue.
    YEAH! Just like MONA LISA is symbolic of a FROWN! RIGHT?
    Almost makes ya want to make sure theres a Italian standin there and pattin them on tha back....From Sicily no less.
    PC's Attention: If everything seems to be going well, you have obviously overlooked something. --- The three men who did IT!*
    Charlie D

    * The pursuit of truth shall set you free ---
    even if you never catch up with it.

    Bondai -- can ya send this thread/posting, etc to "DAN NIGRO"?

    Edited by: Different name at: 1/13/02 4:41:18 pm

    V.I.P. Member
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    (1/13/02 5:07:29 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Whats your view on the WTC firefghters statue.
    Symbolism without substance.

    I'm reminded of the movie "Wag the Dog", where several symbolic acts were concocted by media types, remember?

    One subplot was a little girl supposedly fleeing war in Bosnia, really done on a sound stage, she was holding a bag of Doritos. "Digitally enhanced", the Doritos became a kitten, the soundstage became a bombed out village. The other was the "old shoes" thrown over telephone wires, symbolized the name of some (fictitious) rescued soldier. Complete with staged song by Willie Nelson. All fake, yet legitimized as symbols, because they supposedly unified the American people...(not coincidentally, to support the actions of the government!) Legitimized fraud for a worthy cause?

    Life imitates art...those who see nothing wrong with this ought to think twice about how much we're being manipulated, and where, exactly, does it stop? Slippery slope appplies here.

    By the way, I liked the movie, think I'll rent it again. Anyone who hasn't seen it ought to.

    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
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    (1/13/02 5:47:12 pm)
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    They're not totally PC!

    If the goal was to include an ethnic mix, how come one of 'um isn't a black female firefighter and one a limp wristed faggot?

    Just my .02

    Posts: 2077
    (1/13/02 10:05:09 pm)
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    The best time to change history is when it is fresh.

    What a load of BS
    We can't be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans... -- Bill Clinton, US President (USA Today, 11 Mar 1993, page 2a)

    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
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    (1/13/02 10:18:48 pm)
    | Edit | Del Re: Whats your view on the WTC firefghters statue.
    How come there is no woman depicted in the statue ? If we are going to be PC lets go all the way...

    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
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    (1/14/02 9:09:34 am)
    | Edit | Del Re: Whats your view on the WTC firefghters statue.
    Fred & LTS.....FYI, the second flag raising on Mt. Surabachi was NOT staged. The first flag was a small one that a Marine had in his backpack. A runner was sent immediately to find a larger one that could be more easily seen. He found a ship's flag on an LST and brought it back.

    Joe Rosenthal photographed that second flag raising as it happened.....he didn't pose it.

    For what it's worth.....one of the men in that famous photo was a minority. Ira Hayes was a Pima Indian.

    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
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    (1/15/02 11:25:06 am)
    | Edit | Del Re: Whats your view on the WTC firefghters statue.
    I've said it before and I'll say it again.FOLLOW THE MONEY, ALWAYS FOLLOW THE MONEY.

    Bankroller of Bogus Firefighter Statue Tied to Clintons

    The wealthy New York City developer who put up $180,000 dollars for a politically correct statue based on the photo "Flag Raising at Ground Zero" is a heavy Democratic Party donor who spent the night at the White House as a guest of Bill and Hillary Clinton and who was considered a shoe-in for a top White House post early in the Clinton administration.

    Bruce Ratner, the CEO of Forest City Ratner Enterprises who decided to replace two of the three white firefighters captured in a world famous photo of the flag raising with a more racially diverse duo, spent the night at the White House with his wife Julie sometime in 1996. The Clintons have never released the precise dates of their notorious sleep-overs.

    According to Federal Election Commission records, by that time the Ratner family had already donated tens of thousands of dollars to the Clintons, the Democratic Party and various other Democrats around the country.

    FEC Records also show that Mrs. Ratner and another family member contributed at least $2,000 to Mrs. Clinton's New York Senate campaign.

    Mr. Ratner was slated to play a key role in party fundraising in the last presidential race, with the New York Post reporting three months before the election that the party's "A-list" contributors "include Miramax co-chairman Harvey Weinstein, international financier Alan Patricoff, Red Apple supermarket magnate John Catsimatidis, Wall Street moguls Bruce Ratner and Stan Shuman and Denise Rich, ex-wife of fugitive financier Marc Rich."

    A longtime Clinton admirer going back to the earliest days of his administration, Ratner participated in the ex-president's pre-inaugural economic summits and gave them rave reviews.

    "It's been really excellent, remarkable," he told the Cleveland Plain Dealer after one Dec. 1992 event, adding that he was "particularly impressed by Clinton's breadth of economic knowledge and by the wide variety of people at the summit."

    Ratner was apparently so close to Clinton that he was considered a shoe-in for a White House appointment in 1993.

    "Well-known New Yorkers have been giving Mr. Clinton behind-the-scenes advice and would probably be offered a job if they wanted one," reported Crane's New York Business just weeks before the 1992 election. "They include Paul A. Volcker, former chairman of the Federal Reserve Board, real estate mogul Bruce Ratner and John Brademas, former president of New York University. Mr. Brademas is seen as a possible secretary of education."

    Ratner is at the center of the statue controversy that continues to swirl since NewsMax.com broke the story last Tuesday that rank and file FDNY members are outraged over his plan to present a distorted version of the flag raising.

    The FDNY leases its headquarters from Ratner's company at his MetroTech Center in Brooklyn, where the politically correct statue is slated to be displayed after it is cast in bronze.

    Ratner's sister Ellen, a Fox News Channel commentator and columnist who has also made substantial contributions to Democrats, said Monday night that her brother would not change his plans to quota-ize the statue.

    "I think this was a decision of the New York Fire Department and my brother and I think they're not going to give," she told FNC. "I think that they feel this is a correct position for them."

    In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up." Martin Niemoeller(1892-1984)

    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
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    (1/15/02 4:52:47 pm)
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    Well, I am proud of you guys bringing up the Mt Suribachi correlation...good job, X and others!

    NEITHER flag-raising was "staged." The first, as was pointed out was too small to be seen off- shore, so the brass ordered a larger one raised...it was, by whoever was standing around available...Rosenthal just happened to be there because he heard it was gonna happen, and he shot the picture...

    The statue IS an exact repro...should serve as a precedent in my book..is it depicting an EVENT or not, I say it is...

    But to go farther on the Iwo thing, at least two, possibly three of the flag raisers pictured and depicted in the statue of the "second" raising, that was the cause of the "myth" that it was staged, died in fighting on Iwo within the next week....and the Indian (notice I didn't say "Native American") who was highly decorated, died an alcoholic...and had a song written by Johny Cash about him...

    Now you want staged events? How about McArthur coming ashore in the Phillipines for the newsreels...they did that about 5 times til they "got it right..." at McArthur's direction...

    That old traitor "Dugout Doug" sure had the eye for publicity...

    BUT, as far as being remembered as a "great historical event", which is what he was aiming for, it was a flop, at least in the way that it is NOT remembered by most Americans...

    ...so I think as far as the statue goes, it SHOULD match the actual photo...THAT is how we WILL remember it...PERIOD.
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