Will There Be Any Social Security Left When I Retire ( 1 2 )

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by ruffitt, Feb 25, 2003.

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  1. ruffitt

    ruffitt *TFF Admin Staff* In Heaven Now

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    BlackGun
    Member
    Posts: 53
    (6/28/01 7:06:25 pm)
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    >
    > > >Our Senators/Congressmen do not pay into Social
    > > >Security, and, therefore they
    > > >do not collect from it. Social Security benefits were
    > > >not suitable for them.
    > > > They felt they should have a special plan. Many
    > > >years ago they voted in
    > > >their benefit plan. In more recent years, no congress
    > > >person has felt the
    > > >need to change it. After all, it is a great plan.
    > > >For all practical
    > > >purposes, their plan works like this: When they retire
    > > >no matter how long
    > > >they have been in office, they continue to draw their
    > > >same pay until they
    > > >die, except it may be increased from time to time by
    > > >the cost-of-living
    > > >adjustments For example, former Senator Bill Bradley
    > > >(New Jersey) and his
    > > >wife may be expected to draw $7,900,000.00 over an
    > > >average life span, with
    > > >Mrs. Bradley drawing $275,000.00 during the last year
    > > >of her life. Their
    > > >cost for this excellent plan is "0," nada, zilch.
    > > >This little perk they
    > > >voted in for themselves is free to them. You and I
    > > >pick up the tab for this
    > > >plan.
    > > >
    > > >Our tax dollars at work! Social Security, which you
    > > >and I pay into every
    > > >payday for our own retirement, with an equal amount
    > > >matched by our employer,
    > > >we can expect to get an average of $1,000 per month.
    > > >Or, we would have to
    > > >collect our benefits for 68 years and 1 month to equal
    > > >the Bradley's
    > > >benefits.
    > > >
    > > >Imagine for a moment that you could structure a
    > > >retirement plan so desirable,
    > > >a retirement plan that worked so well, that Railroad
    > > >Employees, Postal
    > > >Workers, and others who were not in the plan would
    > > >clamor to be included.
    > > >This is how good Social Security could be, if only one
    > > >small change was made.
    > > > That change would be to jerk the Golden Fleece
    > > >Retirement Plan out from
    > > >under the Senators/Congressmen. Put them into the
    > > >Social Security plan with
    > > >the rest of us. Watch how fast they fix it!
    > > >
    > > >If enough people receive this maybe a seed will be
    > > >planted, and maybe good
    > > >changes will evolve. Don't forget, our girl, Hillary
    > > >Rodham Clinton, thanks
    > > >to the infinite wisdom of New York State voters, now
    > > >comes under this
    > > >Congressional Retirement Plan.
    > > >
    > > >Talking about the Clinton's, it's common knowledge
    > > >that, in order for her to
    > > >establish NYS residency, they purchased a million +
    > > >house in upscale
    > > >Chappaqua, NY. Makes sense. Now, they are entitled
    > > >to Secret Service
    > > >protection for life. Still makes sense. Here is
    > > >where it becomes
    > > >interesting. A residency had to be built in order to
    > > >house the Secret
    > > >Service agents.
    > > >
    > > >The Clinton's now charge the Secret Service rent for
    > > >the use of said
    > > >residence and that rent is just about equal to their
    > > >mortgage payment,
    > > >meaning that we, the tax payers, are paying the
    > > >Clinton's mortgage and it's
    > > >all perfectly legal.
    > > >





    ---------------



    rules for survival: Sight alignment, Breath control, & Trigger Squeeze
    BlackGUN

    TallTLynn
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 912
    (6/28/01 7:08:59 pm)
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    BlackGun,

    I don't pay into Social Security either.

    Flhunter
    Member
    Posts: 29
    (6/28/01 7:14:13 pm)
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    Please tell me that was a FAIRY tale..
    Guns don't cause crime anymore than flies caues garbage.

    TallTLynn
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 914
    (6/28/01 7:18:29 pm)
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    Flhunter - I somehow doubt that it's a "Fairy Tale".

    After all the Clintons got to make some more money off the taxpayers somehow.

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 958
    (6/28/01 9:07:32 pm)
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    Social Security was the biggest Ponzi Scheme ever foisted on America, and they would have gotten away with it had the birth rates constantly increased to cover the more and more people retiring with just enough money to keep them quiet.

    It's broken, badly, and if you are under age 50 you'd BETTER be planning on getting zilch from it, no matter what that letter you get each year says.

    Give us our money back, hell, I don't care, FORCE us to invest it, but we can ALL be almost rich if we do it ourselves.

    The scam is that it by law CANNOT be a seperate fund, so all monies collected get put in the general fund and spent by the Pork Kings any way they want, then they just fund the actual payout to the recipients from the fund. All the "surplus" in SS they talk about is "paper", bonds, with NOTHING to back it up but the "full faith and trust" of the scum who gave it to us in the first place!

    But I know, our Grandparents are depending on it, and would scream bloody murder if we take it away, like heroin addicts do when the smack stops flowing...

    SO...the solution is simple

    First, we end Social Security at a certain date, ALL the money collected at that point stays with the fund, no more taken out of ANY check at that point goes to SS.

    But before that, we calculate the age at which a person would make more money in SS than by investing it, probably it would be like 58 or so, then anybody 58 or older will be guaranteed the SS payment they were expecting. The cost of this program, which would END when the last now 58 year old dies is funded by a straight tax, all of us will know EXACTLY the cost, which will DECREASE each day by deaths of recipients. Of course we will have to fund a Disability benefit, perhaps like welfare, or heck, I'd pay a special tax for it as a different program.

    THEN, the EQUIVALENT amount deducted from EVERYONES check that WAS the SS contribution, will go into a private retirement account FOR THAT PERSON, and his family, ONLY. Like a 401K, only CANNOT be touched by any person except upon retirement.

    I think it would work IF we can placate the seniors....







    Edited by: polishshooter at: 6/28/01 11:38:16 pm

    tuckerd1
    Member
    Posts: 240
    (6/28/01 9:25:09 pm)
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    I agree with you polish.

    The civil service worker now starting work for the fed gov't have a retirement system called FERS (Federal Employee Retirement System). It is a type of investment system like a 401K. it started as three seperate funds you could put your money into. A gov't security fund, a bond fund and a stock fund. You can put up to 10% of your base pay in it and the feds match up to 5% of your base pay. The individual can move money between the funds to protect themselves during downs in the stocks or bonds and take advantage of when things are good in a fund. Some very high gains have been seen by individuals in this system.

    Can not touch the money until retirement age, except to give yourself a loan which has to meet strict requirements for approval and you must pay it back to yourself. I would go with no loans to anyone.

    There is no reason a similiar system could not be implemented in place of SS.

    TallTLynn
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 918
    (6/28/01 9:34:31 pm)
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    tuckerd1 - open season can now put 11% into it and the government I believe is matching 6% now. Next year it's supposed to go to 12%.

    I'm under CERS, I've already got my SS time in over the last 15 yrs and when I went back to Federal Service went back under CERS not FERS (god I hate acronyms). I can also invest into the 401K (and yes it is a 401K) but only 6% and the government doesn't match me.

    Now FERS actually includes social security, a retirement fund, and the 401K. Under the 401K they have now expanded it to I believe 6 different funds you can invest in.

    tuckerd1
    Member
    Posts: 242
    (6/28/01 9:49:03 pm)
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    TLynn, I'm under CSRS also. But the FERS system would be a great way to build a good retirement for everyone and the gov't (taxpayers) would not have to put in a penny as long as employers pay the matching money just as they are now with SS.

    I agree with polish that it is too late for some older folks, but anyone 50 or younger could probably provide for themselves very well with a similiar system and a partial to full SS benefit for the older ones until all the older ones are off the roles.

    Let's cough up enough money to get our elderly comfortably through their retirement years. They earned it. Stop paying all this welfare to the lowlife that never work a day in their life and keep hatching babies like chicks!!!. Go to work or starve!!! There is work out there for ANYONE who wants to work!!!

    shizamus
    Member
    Posts: 14
    (6/28/01 9:56:56 pm)
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    So-So Security will it be there? Maybe, maybe not!
    Senators & Congressman servants turned masters,
    master criminals is what they are! They need to be dealt with.

    TallTLynn
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 919
    (6/28/01 10:17:42 pm)
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    tuckerd1 - I too like polishshooter's idea - too bad it's not pc enough for our government. I do think if lobbied hard enough and could show that the seniors would not be hurt by it - would be a far better idea.

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 963
    (6/28/01 10:59:42 pm)
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    The problem with getting rid of SS is that it is addicting on BOTH ends...the seniors and disabled depending on it, and the slimey politicians, mainly Democrats now, but BOTH parties in the 60s through 80s who got to spend all that money like drunken sailors in port on payday with no accountability to the taxpayers on any pet project they had a mind too, more even that was budgeted for just by "raiding the Trust Fund" which never REALLY existed in the first place!!!

    They put "bonds" in place to make it look solvent, just sold more bonds when it was going broke before just to "shore it up" and put off the day of reckoning so they could keep spending. But that day is here, NOW. No creative bookkeeping is gonna save it now, the numbers don't add up, ESPECIALLY with the baby boomers retiring, and the work force shrinking so much, more people will be ON SS than contributing in a few years!!!

    Money is Power in politics. You saw how the Dems fought the measley $1.8 Billion tax cut over 10 years, which is just a drop in the bucket to the total tax rape they'll take in over that same period!!! Like $29 BILLION!!!!

    They will fight tooth and nail to keep that "Unbooked" cash flowing, and will do everything they can to scare the seniors out of their wits to vote any change down...

    ...And people think the Democrats are the "compassionate" party, makes me sick.

    Edited by: polishshooter at: 6/29/01 12:03:33 am

    kdubaz
    Moderator
    Posts: 92
    (6/28/01 11:44:21 pm)
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    Nope -

    Ain't gonna be any left for you young'uns, 'cause Xracer and a few of us older generation types are gonna have it all spent on partys, booze and fast wimmin 'fore you're elgible!!!

    Heh! Heh! Heh!
    Keep below the ridgeline!

    Xracer
    Moderator
    Posts: 488
    (6/29/01 8:05:15 am)
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    Thass right, Kdub......I'm suckin' that thing dry right now!

    Seriously.....Social Security WILL be there. There are two "third rails" in U.S. national politics....Social Security and the home mortgage loan deduction. Every congressman and president knows that messing with those is instant political death!

    Voters over 55 vote in greater numbers, and higher percentages, than any other age group.....even congress isn't stupid enough to anger the largest voting bloc in the nation.

    kdubaz
    Moderator
    Posts: 102
    (6/29/01 3:42:39 pm)
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    Well, maybe we'll leave ya' enough ta' pay yore Medicare and Medicaid payments!
    Keep below the ridgeline!

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 971
    (6/29/01 3:51:14 pm)
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    So X, what you are saying is old people are too stupid and selfish to do what is good for America?

    That is EXACTLY what the Democrats are counting on!

    I really have a better opinion of them, they will do the right thing and support it when they understand the truth, just like they have ALWAYS done the right thing in the past when they understood the consequences.

    But Yes, the elderly are the number one target of Gypsies and scam artists, too, they fall for snow jobs like Social Security all the time...

    That thinking, the "Third Rail" is already gone, we ARE talking about it, we HAVE to because IT IS ALREADY GONE!!!!

    Get used to it, there is no "saving" the already dead!!!

    Xracer
    Moderator
    Posts: 494
    (6/30/01 8:55:02 am)
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    Polish.....I believe that people vote in what they percieve to be their own best interests.....you and I as gun owners do, would you deny persons nearing retirement age the same right?

    What with job mobility nowadays, few people stay at a job long enough to build up decent retirement nest egg, so Social Security (or something very like it) will be even more important in the future.

    Granted, SS is a mixed-up mess.....every few years, congress has to jump in and "save Social Security!", but until somebody comes up with a realistic, secure, federally-backed, better alternative, it's what we're stuck with.

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 993
    (6/30/01 1:10:44 pm)
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    X, that is what's FRUSTRATING. I and many others have ALREADY come up with a workable federal alternative to Social Security that will WORK!! People just won't LISTEN, which is why ignorance and stupidity guide their voting rather than REASON. The Dems have succeeded in "scaring" the seniors into not listening, when anybody mentions SS.
    Thank God that is changing, more and more intelligent Seniors are supporting change, and as "Boomers" retire and figure how much they WOULD have made investing it themselves, and the old ones that don't understand die off, it's going to end as we know it soon, but it won't be soon enough.

    It will just take education to get the stupid people to let go of their meager handout now!

    Read back in this post and explain WHY it is NOT better than Social Security. You can't.

    It is YOUR account, your deductions will follow you no matter where you work, that employer just matches whatever you put in like he does now, but all YOUR money goes to YOU!!!

    NOT to fund a "Federal Spending Program" that gives retirees a pittance, and allows the politicians to spend the rest on other stuff.

    Your analogy to "interests" is faulty. YES I allow seniors to vote for their own interest, the PROBLEM is Social Security is NOT in their OR any American's interest.

    WE need to educate them. They are mistaken. Just like those who support Gun-Control because they mistakenly see it as "in their best interest."

    We're counting on YOU to support us. The country cannot afford to pay SS for me when I retire, and I don't expect it to. You always believed mistakenly the country COULD afford SS forever. I understand, but the situation is NOT like it was in the Depression in the 30s when it seemed like a good idea. Times have changed.

    I realize and firmly believe those of you who were "conditioned" that SS was good, and "owed" to you should be paid as you expected to be as long as you live.

    Just don't return the favor by forcing ME into the same corrupt dying system because of selfishness, where I get SQUAT when I'm in your position, when we CAN easily make it better, NOW.



    kdubaz
    Moderator
    Posts: 123
    (6/30/01 5:39:10 pm)
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    Polish -

    You have some very valid points - the #l being most people can do a better job managing their assets than the federal government can. Notice I said MOST.

    This is the real burning issue. How do you require citizens to invest part of their earnings in solid, dependable investments of their own chosing and on a regular basis?

    401K's, ESOP's, Thrift Plans, all these are good and everyone should be wise enough to be using them to the maximum amount allowable now, in addition to the present Social Security. I can guarantee SS by itself will NOT sustain a person' retirement.

    That's one of the talking points that Bush used for election. He supposedly has a plan whereby part of the present SS payments may be elected into private or public investments to supplement the retirement growth funds for each individual. Yes, I certainaly wish such an option had been available back in my income producing days - I would have tried to invest as much as possible into the fund. As it is, I had to make my own supplemental retirement investments through dividend paying life insurance, deferred income plans, ESOP's, and plain old personal invest schemes. It was tough when the family was young, the payroll income was small, the wife stayed home raising the kids and I had all sorts of hunts and firearms to attain. Worked one full and one parttime job for years to keep things together and still put some retirement funds aside. I sure thank the person (father-in-law) that steered me into these programs.

    This is why we need to get some of those donkeycrats off Bush's back and let him have the space to bring some of these programs to the public.
    Keep below the ridgeline!

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1005
    (6/30/01 6:38:11 pm)
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    That's just it, Kdub, KEEP the deductions coming from everybodies paycheck like they do now and everybody is used to. Use some of it to pay the SS for people that need to be on it, like I said earlier, determine at what age it's too late to get more money by investing, and fully fund SS for only them, and as they die off, the percentage going into your personal account goes up.

    Make the program JUST like a 401K, only it's MANDATORY if you have a job, and you CANNOT touch it at all until retirement, no exceptions, like a "real" 401K. In that regard it will be no different than SS,

    Give the people the chance to "play with it" within the fund, like a 401, switching from stocks to bonds to equity funds, to try and earn more, and people may just get SMARTER about money and economics.

    That's another reason the Dems don't want it, people that are smart about money are a threat to them and the way they do business with taxes and spending.

    I agree, when I was starting out with a family I could not afford to invest on my own, What you are forgetting is that all along there were those damn SS deductions taken out like clockwork. Thats the money we are talking about.

    Bush says 2% only because that's easier to sell then more at this time, but even that's a great start. I want to see MOST of it privatized some day, but even at just 2% of the deduction privatized, we can kiss the rest goodbye and STILL see a better return than SS in 15-20 years!!!

    And the Dems NEVER want you to know that!!!

    TallTLynn
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 954
    (6/30/01 6:41:11 pm)
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    polishshooter - only one problem with your logic here.

    It's good logic and you know that there are those in the government that do not like the idea of anything that does not benefit them in someway. They will be the ones who block this every which way to Sunday because it could and would work!

    Hell I'd vote for it and would not mind contributing to it - I'd like to have some sort of say where my money goes.

    MediaMike1111
    Registered User
    Posts: 1
    (7/3/01 1:39:50 am)
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    Since it is truly at best a 1% return on the investment, Social Security is a dumb place to put your dough.

    I got out of the system back in 1999. I found that 20 CFR § 404.1905 was helpful to that end. I sent the card and number back to the SSA, and found that laws of the United States don't require me to have a number.

    To see if you are required to have a number, visit 42 USC § 405(c)(2)(B). If you aren't in one of the 5 categories of people listed, then you are NOT required to have a social security number (mark of the beast).

    In Liberty
    MediaMike

    Xracer
    Moderator
    Posts: 516
    (7/3/01 8:04:32 am)
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    Very interesting arguments........however, I think you're all forgetting history here.

    All of the alternatives to SS that I've seen involve putting money into the private sector....money market accounts, stocks, bonds, etc.

    Social Security was conceived because of the FAILURE of the private sector to provide a safe and secure repository for people's funds.....the Great Depression!

    Granted, various government agencies and our "managed economy" have made investment in the private sector far safer than it was then.....but nonetheless, it's still a gamble.

    Most of you only remember the last 10-12 years of unprecedented economic growth. May I remind you that there was a similar period from 1916 to 1929.....and then the sh*t hit the economic fan. It took a World War to get our economy back on track again.

    LIKTOSHOOT
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1188
    (7/3/01 8:21:31 am)
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    Anyone remember the trial run of private investments for some of the workers in Corpus Christi, Texas many years back. They were allowed to opt out completely and the company invested on their own. 20 years later at retirement:

    Social Security paid: Approx. $1350.00 month
    Private Investement`s paid approx. $5800.00 month

    The story you will never hear, because you can become free from government control, the above figures, both increase each year also.....which would you rather have???

    tuckerd1
    Member
    Posts: 250
    (7/3/01 8:54:24 am)
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    I still see the personal investment route as the best. You aint gonna convince me that them idiots in DC can manage our money better.

    The SS system as we know it is history. It will be gone just as investments were during the depression. Unless you want to go to a 100% socialist society where the gov't provides for everything and makes all of your decisions for you.

    the real fredneck
    Member
    Posts: 98
    (7/3/01 9:52:35 am)
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    I think the plan is that everyone works till they're dead (compassionate conservatism)

    Xracer
    Moderator
    Posts: 523
    (7/3/01 3:53:41 pm)
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    Beautiful, Fred.......beautiful!

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1052
    (7/3/01 5:49:14 pm)
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    Social Security WAS also meant to get the "old codgers" out of the workplace so young workers could have their jobs, so in a way, it's age discrimination. NOBODY talked about "retirement" before SS, now they think it's a RIGHT!!!

    X, there will NEVER be another Depression just like that one, too many other controls in place, not the least of which is the fact most investors are alot more savvy and diversified. That is a good thing, too, X, I do not think ANY of us younger folks could SURVIVE another Great Depression.

    In the 20s is when the "gravy train" REALLY existed, average Joes were putting their ENTIRE lifes savings into stocks, and when the bottom dropped out, they were destitute. The WISE investors lost only paper in the 30s, and SOME made TONS of money!!!!

    NOBODY is advocating that at all, and that is NO reason to be afraid of the Stock Market if you are investing about 10% of your income. But even if you are, fine, there's lots of other options, to cushion against a fall!!!

    X, that kind of thinking is what is holding EVERYONE back!!! AS well as making you POOR, all the while making the government RICH with your money!!!

    SS benefits are CRAP!!! How well off would you be if you were getting 3 times that amount each month? That is a CONSERVATIVE estimate if you had invested only a part of what the government took from you just to run the SS program over your lifetime. Most good investors your age would be getting 10 times their measly SS allowance if the darn governement wasn't running their lives and planning their retirement for them!

    Get used to having higher expectations in your retirement, IN SPITE of your government. Don't be limited to what the government thinks is right for you!!! That is what the Liberals want. That is Socialism at it's WORSE.

    And wouldn't you rather LOSE most your money making your own decisions? You'd STILL probably end up with about what you get on SS!!!!

    Social Security runs AGAINST everything that it means to be American!

    Because that's about all that could happen, and you'd have done it all with YOUR money, not money the government said you "could have back." FREEDOM is what we are celebrating tomorrow. Social Security is SLAVERY.
     
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