Would you log, or not?

Discussion in 'Curio & Relics Forum' started by cointoss2, Mar 3, 2003.

  1. cointoss2

    cointoss2 Guest

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1528
    (9/3/01 10:17:38 pm)
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    OK, guys, another CR Logging case...

    Let me refresh your memories, the three DIFFERENT explanations I got from three DIFFERENT ATF offices on the need to Log.

    1. ATLANTA - You must log EVERYTHING, even guns that aren't CR, even if you owned it prior to your CRFFL.

    2. FRANKFORT - You only log CR guns, POSSIBLY including CR guns owned prior to the CRFFL, they'd get back to me. (never did.)

    3. INDIANAPOLIS - (The one I'd deal with, AND the easiest to talk to IMHO.) Log only those guns purchased by benefit of the CRFFL.


    Now the case study.

    My Romanian M44 I bought Saturday. Paid retail at a sporting goods store in my home state, had to fill out 4473, and go through NICS, store policy. I gave them a copy of my CRFFL, but they said it didn't matter, "store policy." (They didn't know what it was!)

    Would you log or not, and why?


    Yes, log everything, I don't trust the %^&ards!
    No, it's just like any non-CR purchase, without CRFFL.
    Only if you SELL it.

    Show results

    Well, I didn't win the Powerball, so I still collect Russian Crap and variants thereof. ( And am darn happy I can!)

    AntiqueDr
    Moderator
    Posts: 728
    (9/3/01 10:27:17 pm)
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    Well, I dont know if this is apples to apples or not, but a whole bunch of stuff I buy is stuff I fill out 4473's on (a LOT of places dont even recognize a Class 01 FFL). I log it all, even if its stuff I buy for me. I log out my personal stuff to me as "personal collection."

    Now, these guns ARE specifically for resale so that might make a difference.


    We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
    www.apaxenterprises.com

    Spanish Cruffler
    Member
    Posts: 87
    (9/4/01 5:35:07 am)
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    As I have mentioned before - I keep two logs. One of them is the C&R log in & out, the other is my personal collection log. In this case, I would log the rifle on my personal collection log, but if I was going to sell it, I would transfer it to my C&R log.

    LIKTOSHOOT
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 2143
    (9/4/01 7:49:32 am)
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    We log everything that is purchased with an FFL, we also log any firearm transfered to the personal collection using the FFL.

    If a firearm is bought from an individual, or a form was filled out or was a personal firearm prior to having an FFL and is for private and personal use of us, no.

    Personal firearms are not recorded except for our records on serial numbers and descriptions incase of thieft or insurance claims, fire, flood ect.

    There is "no" law requiring you to log personal firearms, lest you live in a State that requires it. BATF, though does not require it.


    "am not" R2

    AntiqueDr
    Moderator
    Posts: 729
    (9/4/01 8:36:34 am)
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    UNLESS you buy a gun from an individual, and then sell it. That's getting into a gray area... I was told (yet another BATF interpretation) that I am the license and the license is me, which I take to mean that if I sell a gun it had better be logged.

    I know that I can maintain a personal collection aside from my inventory. But if I decide to sell one of my personal guns, I log it in first.

    Understand, this might not apply to C&R, I dont know.

    We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
    www.apaxenterprises.com

    Zigzag2
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1055
    (9/4/01 10:08:00 am)
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    ezSupporter
    Re: Would you log, or not?
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    Log everything, like has been mentioned, it's a great paper trail for insurance purposes. If you are keeping a particular piece, sign it out to yourself. Not worth being caught with a weapon that is " NOT leagally possessed". Which is the terms put forth on our CCW in Indidna.


    Flhunter
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 297
    (9/4/01 11:13:23 am)
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    I don't care what the BATF has told you, unless you have it in writing that says you do not need to log it. Log everything!
    Guns don't cause crime anymore than flies caues garbage.

    LIKTOSHOOT
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 2145
    (9/4/01 1:06:11 pm)
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    Dispositions ( Selling ) or Personal Weapons by Licensed Dealers.

    "A licensed firearms dealer may sell or otherwise dispose-of a firearm from his personal collection without the "Federal sale" requirment of entering the transaction in the Firearms Record Book (also called the "Bound Book" or "A&D Book" ) and filling out Form 4473 (Part 1) as long as a) the firearm was purchased or aquired before becoming a dealer, or (b) the firearm was maintained in the personal collection for at least a year after it was transfered there from the dealer`s own Firearms Record Book or otherwise aquired as a personal firearm (ATF P 5300.4, Title 27 CFR, 178.125a)."

    *****Less than one year, it is required*******

    "Note: Because we believe that "a dealer is always a dealer", it is suggested that they treat all sales of personal weapons, as "Federal sales" by "running" them through the Firearms Record Book and filling-out the Form 4473 (Part 1). By "going the extra mile" to better-qualify the buyer of a personal firearm even when not always federally-required, the dealer will be favorably looked-upon by any BATF agent checking his/her books during the normal yearly compliance inspection. And, personal gun transactions run through the Firearms Record Book count as a "Federal sale" in the eyes of BATF. Remember, dealers must show at least 2 or 3 firearm sales per year to someone else (for profit) besides themselves to justify keeping the FFL."
    "am not" R2

    Spanish Cruffler
    Member
    Posts: 92
    (9/4/01 1:24:17 pm)
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    OK - that is licensed dealers. We are talking about a C&R FFL here.

    LIKTOSHOOT
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 2146
    (9/4/01 1:47:54 pm)
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    Same rules apply Bob for personal weapons. These are the basic guidelines set up for private sales, just as you would normally do. If you log it for personal or collection and it was purchased with your C&RL then it must be logged.....in, out, otherwise. If in turn, you purchased it from an individual or filled out a BATF Form 4473, you are not required by the BATF to record it in your Record Books. But they will "look favorable" on you when audited. What the HECK does that mean, they will curl their lip up and spit in your direction????? if you don`t, even though it`s not the law. LTS
    "am not" R2

    Spanish Cruffler
    Member
    Posts: 93
    (9/4/01 2:43:44 pm)
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    That is why I keep two books - the personal collection book is those that are not C&R license purchases or transfers - but if BATF questions a certain firearm, I can say "look here - it is recorded in my personal collection, therefore it was not a C&R FFL purchase." But like I said, if I was to go to sell it, I would transfer it to my C&R log, to register the transfer.

    Anyway, that is what a local agent here said to do.

    AntiqueDr
    Moderator
    Posts: 730
    (9/4/01 2:53:53 pm)
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    Sounds reasonable.

    Hey, Bob, did my email get through?


    We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
    www.apaxenterprises.com

    Spanish Cruffler
    Member
    Posts: 94
    (9/4/01 3:05:39 pm)
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    Do you mean the e-mail on the Bufalo pistol? I got that at home the other day. I am still debating that one. Got a lot of cash out right now, but if I sell something in the next day or two, I'll jump on it. If it is a different e-mail, my daytime address is:

    rjskrivan@terracon.com



    AntiqueDr
    Moderator
    Posts: 731
    (9/4/01 3:25:48 pm)
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    Wow, that pulled up a whole website of what looks like sewage-slurpers.



    Which one is you?

    Anyway, you've got mail!


    We Buy Guns! 1 - 100, Antique or Modern!
    www.apaxenterprises.com

    Edited by: AntiqueDr at: 9/4/01 4:29:24 pm

    Spanish Cruffler
    Member
    Posts: 95
    (9/4/01 4:10:39 pm)
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    Nah - those guys are just measuring the angle of my tool ---

    We is Environmental Consultants, Geotechnical Engineers, and Construction Material Testing specialists.

    polishshooter
    Senior Chief Moderator Staff
    Posts: 1532
    (9/4/01 9:50:52 pm)
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    Buddy to Bob on a bathroom break at work: "Boy that mud sure is COLD!"

    Bob: "Yeah, and DEEP too..."

    What are you guys wearing in that picture, Bob, full-body condoms?
    Well, I didn't win the Powerball, so I still collect Russian Crap and variants thereof. ( And am darn happy I can!)

    Spanish Cruffler
    Member
    Posts: 97
    (9/5/01 6:06:23 am)
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    Yup. I work in one of the few fields in this world where you can wear full body condoms.

    gun runner john
    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 247
    (9/9/01 5:30:25 pm)
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    I don't know if I mentioned it here or not, but this question was asked and answered in writing of the ATF in 1996 by a friend of mine. He generously provided both the copy of the letter he wrote to them, and their response. In short, the answer was that you only logged C&R guns that you acquired while your license was in force, whether you acquired them with the C&R or not. You did not have to log C&R guns that you owned prior to obtaining the license, nor did you have to enter them into the book when you sold those "pre-license" C&R guns. Non-C&R guns are not entered into the book at all. This is how I maintain my book.