Your Opinions

Discussion in 'VMBB General Discussion' started by inplanotx, Mar 8, 2003.

  1. inplanotx

    inplanotx Active Member

    Jan 28, 2002
    *VMBB Staff*
    Posts: 1093
    (10/8/02 10:43:40 pm)
    Reply Your Opinions
    I haven't seen this topic come up lately so I will bring it up now:

    What is your take on WAR? Do you feel like we should sit back and let the tide take it's course and hope and pray nothing happens to us?........Or do you think we should say enough is enough and go after Saddam?


    Posts: 2323
    (10/8/02 10:49:57 pm)

    Re: Your Opinions
    My opinion is, go snag his ass, only this time, can we PLEASE
    finish the job straight through to BagDaddy? And beyond
    if need be?
    TFF VMBB Email Tac

    *VMBB Staff*
    Posts: 583
    (10/9/02 1:37:45 pm)

    Re: Your Opinions
    All the WAY!!


    Endeaver to Persevere

    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 326
    (10/10/02 11:45:27 am)
    Reply Re: Your Opinions
    OK... so no one else other than three of us has chimed in on this one eh??

    well... here is my two cents...

    Should we go to war with Iraq?

    A much bandied about question of late.

    The $ 64,000 question so to speak.


    No.. and yes……

    Having said that, allow me to explain




    As a civil war general once pontificated. And as one who has also “Seen the Elephant”. I know that it is a true statement. And having spent a short while in my little piece of personal hell, I would do it in a heartbeat, if I were not so old now. BUT, I hesitate to send my sons or daughter.. or even YOUR son or daughter “into the breach once more”. That brings me to some questions…..

    Are we, as a people, ready to wage hell onto others?


    Maybe not..

    First, let me present one of Mark Twains short stories on the subject.
    It was a time of great and uplifting excitement. The country was up in arms, and the war was on.

    In our small town, every breast burned with the holy fire of patriotism. Drums beat, bands played, toy pistols popped, firecrackers hissed and spluttered. On every street, a fluttering wilderness of flags flashed in the sun.

    Daily the young volunteers marched down the avenue, smart and fine in their new uniforms. Proud fathers and mothers and sisters and sweethearts cheered with voices choked with emotion.

    Nightly we packed the public meetings, where patriotic speeches stirred our hearts to the deepest deep. At every other word, we burst in with cyclones of applause, even as tears ran down our cheeks.

    A half dozen rash dissenters dared to disapprove of the war and cast doubt on its righteousness. But they right away got such a stern and angry warning that they quickly shrank from sight and offended no more.

    It was indeed a glad and gracious time.

    Sunday morning came and our church was filled. It was the day before the battalions would leave for the front.

    The volunteers were there, their young faces alight with visions of glorious victory. Beside them were their proud and happy dear ones, as well as envious neighbors with no sons or brothers of their own to send forth to the field of honor.

    The minister read a war chapter from the Old Testament. Then an organ blast shook the building, and together we rose with glowing eyes and beating hearts to pour out that tremendous invocation,

    “God the all-terrible! Thou who ordainest, Thunder thy clarion and lightning thy sword!”

    Then came the minister’s prayer.

    Never in our church had we heard the like of it for passionate pleading and moving language.

    “Ever-merciful and benign Father of us all, watch over our noble young soldiers. Bless and shield them in the day of battle and the hour of peril. Bear them in Thy mighty hand, make them invincible in the bloody onslaught. Grant to them and to their flag and country imperishable honor and glory…”

    An aged stranger entered from the back and moved up the aisle with slow and noiseless step. His long body was clothed in a robe that reached to his feet, and his white hair fell in a frothy waterfall to his shoulders. His rough face was unnaturally pale, almost ghostly.

    With all our eyes on him, he ascended to the minister’s side and stood there, waiting. The minister’s own eyes were shut in prayer, and he went on unaware of the stranger.

    “Grant us victory, O Lord our God, Father and Protector of our land and flag. Amen.”

    The stranger touched the startled minister on the arm and motioned him to step aside.

    The minister did so, and the stranger took his place.

    For some moments he surveyed his spellbound audience, then spoke in a solemn voice.

    “I come from the Throne of Heaven, bearing a message from Almighty God”.

    The words smote us with a shock. If the stranger noticed, he gave no heed.

    “You have heard your minister pray, “Grant us victory, O Lord our God.” The Lord too has heard this prayer, and He will grant it—if such is your desire. But first I am commanded to explain to you its full meaning. For it is not one prayer, but two—one spoken, the other not. Listen now to the silent prayer:

    “O Lord our God, help us tear the enemy soldiers to bloody shreds. Help us cover their smiling fields with their patriot dead. Help us drown the thunder of guns with the shrieks of their wounded. “God our Father, help us lay waste the enemy’s homes with a hurricane of fire. Help us send out their women and children and elderly to wander homeless in rags and hunger and thirst. “For our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, fill the hearts of the enemy with helpless fear and grief. Break their spirits, blast their hopes, and blight their lives. All this we ask in the spirit of Love, of Him Who is the source of Love. Amen.”

    He pauses…. “You have prayed it. If you still desire it, speak! The messenger of the Most High waits.”

    Afterward, we agreed the man must have been a lunatic. What he said made no sense at all.

    ---- Mark Twain


    Now…… should we go to war with Iraq…..some things need to be said. Even if it is in your heart only. I beg you to remember, the politicians start the war, the young must end it and the rest of us must endure it.

    01. Are our politicians, who will not be required to fight and die, sure, that the cause they have asked us to sign on to is just?. (September 11th not withstanding).

    02. Are our Generals, sufficiently knowledgeable of the situation and therefore are prepared to wage a war that will always look to the welfare of their charges, but at the same time inflict a terrible cost upon the enemy and his collateral people?

    03. Are we , as a people, prepared to endure whatever hardships our politicians require of us, both economically and physically?

    04. Are the peoples of the world ready for whatever the consequences will be, or shall be, if we engage in this venture? And more to the point, are they going to support us? or rail against us? and possibly interfere with us? Remember, the oil out of Arabia DOES NOT all go to us… most of it goes to Europe and Japan. We get more from south America and other sources.

    05. Are our soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines ready, prepared…… mentally, physically & emotionally prepared for a trip into the deepest reaches of hell?

    06. Are our families of those combined forces also prepared, and in they same way?

    07. Do we wait for another attack? Which will then prove that we would be right and, therefore, just, in this endeavor?

    08. Would another attack, which might kill thousands, be sufficient reason to retaliate?

    09. Can we, as a nation, afford to wait for such an attack?

    Here are my answers to the questions I have raised……..

    01. I doubt, very seriously, that ANY of the politicians children will be involved in this. The VN war didn’t start to go bad until it was THEIR children that started to get drafted.

    02. Yes, I believe they are.

    03. Maybe. But our civil liberties may be curtailed and later hard to get back.

    04. I doubt it.

    05. I have NO doubt that they are.

    06. As best they can, if, indeed, they even understand the question.

    07. No, unless we wish to witness more useless loss of innocent lives. Remember, an enemy doesn’t care and we have BEEN at war for several years now. Granted, it has been a hidden war, hidden by our own politicians.

    08. Yes… and if that happens then we are to blame for the deaths that we COULD have prevented by striking first.

    09. Again, No.

    Now…. It would seem that I am “for” it……. And maybe I am…..I find myself with a deep-seated secret desire to see that damn elephant again….

    And maybe, just maybe, I still adhere to The Great Genghis Khan’s old adage

    "A man's greatest work is to drive his enemies before him, to take their horses between his legs, to hear the wailing of their loved ones, and to press into his arms the most desirable of their women."
    --- Genghis Khan

    or, if you prefer, Arnolds interpretation of this :

    “to crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, to hear the lamentations of the women”

    Gee……. My feminine side must be trying to get in touch with me…..

    what do you think??

    Esse Quam Videri

    Edited by: Mithrandir at: 10/10/02 1:21:37 pm

    *VMBB Staff*
    Posts: 1100
    (10/10/02 4:55:37 pm)
    Reply Re: Your Opinions
    Mith I believe Genghis Khan had a better take on it. lol I know each person has their inner most feelings of fear that is associated with the knowledge of a possible impending war.

    However, it better to sit back and do nothing or do what we started to do in the first place and this time don't stop until we have finished with the job? I believe so! Our country nor our people has had to live with the kind of fear that was put on us since 11 Sep. we have always lived a relax life and most likely didn't entertain the thoughts of anything ever happening or least of all another war.

    We are not a people to live like that. We must take care of the problem so that we do not have to continue to live in fear or worse yet, blackmailed by another country.

    I feel for our troops and families but after all look at the numbers who have gone before us and made this country great, we must not let them down. They paid the price for us to live free, not sit back and let some Sadaam or someone like him take it away.

    Enjoyed your post.

    Just my going-on thoughts...Hope

    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 328
    (10/10/02 5:29:16 pm)
    Reply Re: Your Opinions

    I really do agree..

    My up-bringing was rather strange when it came to war....I was raised by my grandparents... not my parents....

    Grandmothers side were all Friends (The Society of Friends ---- Re: Quakers) and therefore a rather pacifist bunch and wished no harm to anyone...Grandfathers side was all Roman Catholic...and therefore wanted everybody ELSE to burn in hell...

    LOL... a rather schizoid life!!

    Since I take after my grandmother more so than grandfather…. Just before I went off to the Army… my grandmother reveiled the history of her side of the family…she told me because she did not want me getting hurt…..

    Her side of the family was the “shunned” branch of the family… because… they all fought in wars!!!

    Five in the Revolutionary war, four or five in the war of 1812, eighteen in the civil war (on both sides), and just about every male fought in WWI, WWII & Korea…

    So … that kinda ended the “Pacifist” line of our family…. (BTW.. Samuel Clemens is a distant cousin and he was a rabid pacifist)

    Since then… the family motto Esse Quam Videri (to be, not seem to be) means I have never been a bluffer (don’t play poker)… if you trip a trigger on me or mine… my only goal is your demise.


    Not really…

    Just “just” payback…

    Esse Quam Videri

    *Senior Chief Of Staff*
    Posts: 1334
    (10/11/02 6:17:05 am)
    Reply Re: Your Opinions
    Mith--you cought me up in the drama. I have often pondered the meaning of the Latin declaration you always post at the end of your messages. In these days of electronic exchanges, one never knows about the other person---those profound disclosures you made about your roots, I appreciate knowing---good manners and civility keeps the humble person from ever asking. Thank you for telling us your views in response to Hope's inquiry. I honestly don't know where I personally stand ---knowing the art of war and the terrible consequences of those horrible weapons referred to as 'Mass Destruction Devices', I must evaluate each and every action and reaction---'riding the fence' is never been something I have been known to do!!! Wilborn

    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 329
    (10/11/02 9:41:38 am)
    Reply Re: Your Opinions

    knowing were to stand is always half the battle…and sometimes, getting to that decision is a major personal battle in and of itself….

    as a Friend and born a Libra…. I have always weighed the pros & cons equally… sometimes to my own detriment….but once a path is either “chosen” or “set before us” my resolve is, then, set in stone; my war song and subsequent death song have been sung and the only thing left is my enemies losing their time on earth…..or me losing mine.

    Luckily in life, I have not had to do this very much.


    “Chosen” to me means that I have looked at the situation and made a decision myself.

    “Set before us” means that someone else has made my choice for me.

    And I strongly believe that Sept 11th was such a choice “set before me” and the rest of us as a nation.

    The gauntlet has been thrown down, and our President (good, bad, or indifferent) has picked it up.

    The shrill protestations from the left and left-leaning liberal minds and the Muslim whiners (or is it wieners??) are nothing more than a minor distraction… my goal would be the utter surrender…or total destruction on my enemies.. and if my friends did not help out, then they must get out of the way.

    Allow me to put this another way by telling a little story……

    I once had a Director who was an old National Guard Artilleryman…. But he served only during peacetime…….But… he had a good solid philosophy of life. Well.. he directed a data processing shop at a local hospital, of which I was the DBA/Systems programmer…..we had a person that was a consummate trouble maker… but this person never did anything themselves, they always manipulated someone else to do the dirty work …… after several months of a really stupid situation happening each and every day….he called the two people who were associated with this problem into his office. And me as a mid-management witness. Where he proceeded to chew the living hell out of us, while at the same time looking only at the one person who, in my opinion, WAS NOT the problem. But he continued this tirade. And when he finished he said “now… do all of you understand!!?” and when we all said yes, he turned to the person that was the source of all our departments grief and said.. ”Oh… buy the way.. YOU are fired!”

    His method was “preach to the one you wish to keep or salvage, and throw the lighting bolt at the other one”

    It was VERY effective.

    And, if you, as an individual are “sitting on the fence”… good… it means that you are evaluating the situation.

    As I sat on that same fence, and now, after I have made a choice… I still had, and have, a very clear imperative directive in my mind… I do not wish to send our children into the fray…if I can help it……but if it happens…. My total support is with and to THEM….not necessarily to the government nor ANY politician.


    long winded SOB ain't I!!

    Esse Quam Videri

    Posts: 1
    (10/11/02 5:18:35 pm)
    Reply your opinions
    I don't live life being afraid now. I grieve for those that lost their lives on 9-11 but I refuse to be driven like an antelope over a cliff.

    I don't think the US should jump off into something because a bunch of braggish bullies without any military time between them think its a good idea.

    I think GW should grab a hold of his balls, and sit back and wait. All he is doing is trying to clean up his daddy's mess anyway. Had ol george taken care of business when it was his turn, lil george could sit on his impish little hands and stay out of trouble.

    lil george should listen to his military staff and his sec of state, not the civilian hanger ons left over from daddy.
    Listen to the experience, not the wannabes.

    enuff said as a wise man once said.

    *VMBB Staff*
    Posts: 1106
    (10/12/02 10:42:39 pm)
    Reply Re: your opinions
    Everyone has an opinion and no matter what the beliefs are at least we have one. Good posts troops! - Hope

    V.I.P. Member
    Posts: 17
    (10/19/02 10:27:04 pm)
    Reply Re: your opinions
    It is not the soldiers job to decide the right or wrong, that will be decided by historians.

    *VMBB Staff*
    Posts: 585
    (10/19/02 10:43:49 pm)

    Re: your opinions
    Great to see ya!
    Welcome brother!


    Endeaver to Persevere

    *VMBB Staff*
    Posts: 420
    (10/19/02 10:48:05 pm)

    Re: your opinions
    Tye my friend - so good to see you again.

    And in a way so true is what you say.

    Posts: 2348
    (10/20/02 10:12:47 pm)

    Re: your opinions
    Good to see your posts again TY!
    TFF VMBB Email Tac

    *VMBB Staff*
    Posts: 1126
    (10/25/02 1:58:39 am)
    Reply Re: your opinions
    Great to see you on board with us TYRVR.....hope you stay around and post a lot more with us. - Hope