[Pat Hurley]

Have you all forgotten the Glock came to be because of the military? Last time I checked it's the issue pistol of several european countries.

That's the best reason I've heard yet to "Just Say No To Glock's." I'm a certified Europhobe.

 

[polishshooter]

Pat, I'm going to like you....

I may not be a FULL BLOWN "Europhobe," but I AM at least a "Germanophobe" and not ONLY on weapons.....

I DO kinda like the looks of the Glock "Combat Knife" though, I wonder though if IT is plastic and blows up too....

And have you noticed that EVERYTHING wrong with the Glock is ALWAYS "User error?" (The dummy DESERVED the "Kaboom!" He uses RELOADS...Harrumph! )

God FORBID anybody badmouth the Glock DESIGN...and ANYBODY since about 1905 that knows ANYTHING about automatic pistols KNOWS about the "unsupported case" but somehow Golckies have to "Re-explain" it like it's something NEW to explain away the Glock in PIECES in any of the (MANY) pictures????


And YES, Ursus, the 9mm has killed more people in combat than the .45 ACP, pretty effectively too, but USUALLY when fired from a SMG, and when the target gets hit by MULTIPLE hits spaced quickly, close together

But "riddle me this...."

Would you rather face a "Double tap" from a .45 in the hands of somebody with a little training at 25 yards or less...or a 9mm from a Beretta in those same hands?

I dunno, for a PURELY defensive weapon, give me the BIG and slow, the BEST chance of saving my life with ONE hit....the BRITISH had the right idea also with their .455 Webleys in the late 1800s against the various "Wogs"....BEFORE we figured it out against the Moros....

And with more body armor in use, a .45 might STILL stop or at least slow somebody down enough even without penetration...

 

[Ursus]

And YES, Ursus, the 9mm has killed more people in combat than the .45 ACP, pretty effectively too, but USUALLY when fired from a SMG, and when the target gets hit by MULTIPLE hits spaced quickly, close together

But "riddle me this...."

Would you rather face a "Double tap" from a .45 in the hands of somebody with a little training at 25 yards or less...or a 9mm from a Beretta in those same hands?

Polish I am not debating about what caliber has killed more people. I said that the single most devastating use of a handgun in combat was not Alvin York's incredible feat of dropping six charging germans with his Colt .45.
In 1975, in Angola, Second Liutenant Lourens Janse van Vuuren a South African, killed 11 charging Cuban soldiers with his handgun, seven of them were one shot kills. Wich gun he used? A Star Model BS...in 9mm. It is to note that this gun is a slightly modified 1911. This speaks great about JMB design.
And YES I would take the .45 over the 9mm. It will give more confidence. But, the actual (and factual) difference between the two calibers is not as great as most people think.

 

[shooter]

Not until the GLOCK gets an external safety.

Springfield XD ....

grip safety
easy to clean/maintain/durable
plenty of rounds in any caliber and barrel lengths

ive never been in the military but id trust my life using one

 

[shooter]

Springfield XD ....

grip safety
easy to clean/maintain/durable
plenty of rounds in any caliber and barrel lengths
no worrying about having to click off a thumb safety..as in less to do if you need to grab and shoot quick
i cant see a more perfect gun as far as from a functional point..

but im not an expert and thats my two cents

ive never been in the military but id trust my life using one

 

[Guest]

I'm a certified Europhobe.

Deutsche Pistolen uber Alles!

 

[polishshooter]

There goes the Neighborhood AGAIN, with that cheap gutter talk....

And you forgot the Sieg Heil! crap...

 

[Pat Hurley]

Deutsche Pistolen uber Alles!

My German is a little rusty, but I think you said "German pistols are the best." Or "Cashmere makes me feel sexy." If it's the former and not the latter, on the whole, I agree, as long as we're speaking only of polymer pistols.

 

[polishshooter]

Why is it that we dress something up with a new term it is suddenly ACCEPTIBLE in "polite" conversation?

My new "plastic" pistol is "Polymer" sounds kinda like saying my new wife was once an "Executive Director" when she really was some pimp's "Madame"....

 

[Guest]

There goes the Neighborhood AGAIN, with that cheap gutter talk....

And you forgot the Sieg Heil! crap...

Nein, Herr Polnisch! Das Deutsch ist die Sprache der Dichten!
(No, Polish! German is the language of poets!)

 

[polishshooter]

Yeah, they say the SAME thing about Gangsta Rap too...


But in the case of German, it's kinda like a chattering MG42 is like "Music" and the smacking of thousands hobnail boots on the pavement is "Rhythm" and the Goosestep as "ballet...."


Give me Chopin over Beethoven ANY day of the week!

 

[Guest]

. . . and the smacking of thousands hobnail boots on the pavement is "Rhythm" and the Goosestep...." . . .

Only when invading Poland, Polish, and then only to keep it out of the hands of those evil Russians.

Chopin, Polish? Hmmm, I thought surely you would choose TAICHOWSKY, especially the 1812 Overture.

 

[polishshooter]

My PARENTS were always mentioning some guy named Paderewsky with awe, and I never figured them out, I remember seeing him in a PIANO book one time (when we were kids, we ALL had to take a minimum of two years piano lessons, I HATED it...got my parents to let me take druums in school to get out of them... )they were DEFINITELY not the "classical" Pianist aficianados, so I always wondered if he had any "Polka" albums....

Until I figured out he was the LAST "President" of the "new-old" Poland in the terrible year of 1939....he was WORSHIPPED, even by second gen expatriates, even if he was more talented tickling the ivories than at diplomacy...giving "recitals" almost until the Panzer Is and IIs and CZ 35s and 38s stqarted rolling across the border! Talk about fiddling while Warsaw burned....


And CHOPIN is POLISH....and my father ALWAYS warned my about "sky's" claiming they were POLISH ("They're just damm RUSSIANS WISHING they were Polish!" )


My father gave a LOT of good advice for a guy who dropped out of school in the 8th grade in WNY to work on the ffamily farm during the Depression...

Like, "You ALWAYS have to keep an eye on those damm GERMANS, they'll stab you in the back in a HEARTBEAT, NEVER trust them, but it's the damm RUSSIANS you'll have to FIGHT..."(or was it HATE, I forget...maybe it was BOTH? )

 

[delta13soultaker]

"Would you rather face a "Double tap" from a .45 in the hands of somebody with a little training at 25 yards or less...or a 9mm from a Beretta in those same hands?"

Would you rather get crushed by a ton of bricks or a ton of feathers??

First hand observation of 9mm ball and .45 ACP ball striking people at close range has given me the opinion that I'd like to be double-tapped by NEITHER.

Both rounds have been used to great effect by our armed forces.

15 January 1968, near Dak To, SP/5 Johnson's actions earned him the Medal of Honor. He was an armored crewmember whose vehicle was disabled. Two of his trips through the enemy assaults he was armed only with a 1911 .45 and killed several both times.

3ID soldiers had multiple encounters with suicidal Fedayeen fighters mounting U.S. Army armored vehicles in the 2003 advance through Iraq. Many of those fighters found suicide to be Beretta M9 9mm's in the hands of crewmembers.

 

[polishshooter]

Delta YES, and .22LR has killed more people than ANY other round too...

There IS a quantifiable and qualifiable DIFFERENCE between 115 grains at 1200 fps, and 230 grains at 800... and it has been PROVEN in combat for almost 150 years now....the 9mm CAN do the job with proper placement, the .45 WILL do the job with proper placement.

Which is EXACTLY why the armed forces WANTED to dump the Beretta AND the 9mm this year...

And you DO know that Beretta GOT the first contract for the 92 because the fix was IN don't you?

 

[stash247]

'Round here, in south Texas, near Lackland AFB, where the air force has their gunshop, there is a kinda snide joke still going around; the guys shooting 'issue' pistols have to put up with those shooting Tommy K's .45's, putting on a catcher's mask, and being told to 'be safe'.
Of the 1911 pistols, I've never heard of one 'coming apart', and, I've soldiered in some really strange places.
Of the Beretta, slide failure is writ into military history, thus, the catcher's mask, in sympathy.
My 'Women and children first' card, is still in effect, but, should the Government again have need of my services, the sidearm I would carry would not be a M-9,even if I had to buy it, myself; having shot,'part time', for the XVIII Airborne Corps Pistol team, I realise the difference, in performance, and will not settle for less than the 1911 ACP.

 

[delta13soultaker]

Stash, I hear ya about the "coming apart", but like thay say, "if it can go wrong it will". Off topic sorta but this last year I've seen a lot of M16A2's with "catostrophic" failures, to include one bolt that shattered in the bolt carrier like glass. A piece of the star lug blasted off into another firing position like a little meteor. Other rifle failures could honestly be described with words like exploded or detonated. And some of those rifles have the pony and COLT stamped on the reciever too. I look at it like this, if Uncle Sam can issue it, it may eventually fall apart when the user really needed it to stay together one more time. But ya know we work with what we got.

Polish, "the 9mm CAN do the job with proper placement, the .45 WILL do the job with proper placement." I seen a man live through a properly placed 7.62 NATO so absolute statements just make me smile.

 

[polishshooter]

OK, OK, Delta, I hear you, I USUALLY hate the absolutes too, so let me "qualify" it...

(AND BTW I don't doubt you for a SECOND about the NATO, I think it is STILL better than the .223 though, even though Japanese shot with the .30-06 at short range in the chest survived and even killed the soldier or Marine TOO, but NONE of them are as good at that as the .45 Goverment was at that EITHER... for the SAME reason the .45acp is BETTER than the 9mm!)

How about..."The 9mm usually CAN while the .45 usually DOES....."

 

[DeaconKC]

Well I own all but the Beretta and if you base it on design, the Beretta or 1911 would be the top 2 choices. Based on cartridge, of course the 1911. When you consider the 92 was chosen primarily for NATO compatibility, and the longevity of the 1911 [1911-2006] it is a no-brainer. And don't bother saying the 1911 was ever withdrawn, because it was never completely phased out by the Army, Marines or Coast Guard.

 

[delta13soultaker]

Works for me, man.

A physically fit and healthy man with a big heap of determination, terror, and/or rage can be damn hard to stop soon enough with anything, save for one in the 'ol CNS. Even if ya kill 'em on their feet, sometimes it takes 20 seconds or more for the body to run out of O2 and realize the fact. 20 seconds in a fight is a looooong time...

I think the .45 acp has everything going for it that a world-class battle cartridge should. It's a balance of mass and cross section and energy and recoil, all in a package that works great in several worthy platforms. I've bet my life on it, all my peers have bet their life on it...and will for as long as it's available. It is the better CQB round for most people.

For the military, accounting for mission and necessity...9mm has a lot going for it as a mass issued weapon where .45 has a lot going for it in certain roles. But I already went into detail about this.