Your revolver is a Type 3 H&R Auto Ejector. This variant was manufactured in 1888 and 1889 with about 4000 total produced. The caliber of your revolver is .32 S&W and .32 H&R. The serial # under the grips is the correct one.

If I'm reading your post correctly, your serial # is 2300. I have in my collection the same revolver serial numbered 2612. Mine is a .38 S&W model. These are very interesting and collectable H&R revolvers.

With best regards,
Jeff

 

It's not 2300 so it's probably not original. I'd already gathered that much. That means I won't devalue the gun any if I change up parts for a better fit up at some point.

Am I correct in how the lockup is supposed to occur?

Almost forgot to ask. Are there patent drawings around for this firearm?

 

Your lockup explanation is correct.
Jeff

 

I want to add to Jeff's reply, posting #2, for the audience who aren't aware.

.32H&R is different from .32H&R Magnum. H&R had a line of cartridges in the late 1800's and early 1900's that were in similar lengths as the S&W versions(so did M&H). ...slightly different, but you could interchange the H&R with S&W of respective short and long length cartridges. Some of the later production large frame .32cal topbreaks were chambered for .32S&W Long. The earlier would be as Jeff mentioned, .32S&W(the short one), or .32H&R.

The .32H&R Magnum came out in the 1980's, is longer than the "short" and "long" versions and would blow a top break gun apart.

That gun is also a blackpowder cartridge model. It isn't impossible to replicate BP pressures and curves with proper smokeless powders, but not recommended. If you've never done it before, BP pistol cartridges are easy to load. Just fill the case with FFFg and seat a bullet. If your powder charges aren't compressing - reduce some, typically 1/16" to 1/8" below mouth of case, then seat.

The lockup on any gun with these type of "ramps" notches on the cylinder use the hand/pawl to hold with the cylinder lock. One holds it from rotating one way, the other for the other direction.

It took a few years for all the manufacturers to discover that using the hand/pawl to assist lockup caused it damage, which would then cause timing issues. So they all migrated to a milled notch in that ramp for the lock/bolt to hold both directions.

 

.32H&R is different from .32H&R Magnum. H&R had a line of cartridges in the late 1800's and early 1900's that were in similar lengths as the S&W versions(so did M&H). ...slightly different, but you could interchange the H&R with S&W of respective short and long length cartridges. Some of the later production large frame .32cal topbreaks were chambered for .32S&W Long. The earlier would be as Jeff mentioned, .32S&W(the short one), or .32H&R.

Thank you. From what I can gather .32 SW (sometimes called short) is supposed to be chamber pressured the same as BP 32 SW. I've also looked up.32 SW long and oddly (to me anyway) it seems to be a lower chamber pressure than .32 SW. Would that indicate that if .32 SW is safe to shoot, and the gun can chamber it 32 SW long would also be safe to shoot? Your comment sort of seems to imply that, but does not say it outright. I am aware of the 32HR and 32 HR Mag and their approximate historical time periods. I have had some difficulty in finding historical data about the 32 HR since the much more recent and still current .32 HR Mag seems to dominate search results.

I have only ever reloaded shotgun shells in the past, but reloading pistol/revolver cartridges would not be a huge step.

I do have a few boxes of 32 SW (short) on my ammo shelf for another historical top break firearm (not H&R), and they are quite mild to shoot. Probably less recoil than a .25 ACP in a mouse gun.

This H&R is not safe to shoot in its current condition, and even after I restore it to proper function I will probably use a pistol vise and sandbags for testing with a string.

I do have another question. Were the ratchet notches for the hand on the cylinder made curved or is that a function of wear over many years of use?

 

Is there a patent drawing available for this revolver?

Or is this one of those things where I have to buy the book first to know? LOL

Yes I do plan to buy the H&R history book eventually, but old patent drawings are not copyright protected in themselves.

 

Okay to many questions from the new guy. I did do a bit of searching and read several threads before starting a new one.

 

Oh, this is interesting. It looks like one of the reasons I had not been able to find the patent drawing for the October 4th 1887 patent is that its not H&R's. It belonged to H.M. Caldwell and was assigned to H&R.

US370926A - caldwell - Google Patents

patents.google.com

It also looks like the ratchet notches were originally straight

 

air in the cartridge is bad.

I have heard that before, but never understood it. What exactly happens if there is "air" in the cartridge. There is of course air in the cartridge anyway. Just a little more if there is a gap between the bullet and the charge. Poor ignition? Hang fire? Squib? I would presume the biggest potential issue would be excess pressure, but I don't see the process where that would happen unless you had a squib and then fired another shot.

 

From how it was explained to me.

Uncontained, black powder burns REALLY fast. When contained, it tends to slow some. ...it works somewhat the opposite that smokeless burns. BP is an explosive, smokeless is a propellent.

With air in a cartridge(or chamber) with blackpowder, it is able to burn and expand uncontrolled, which causes severe spikes in pressure, which then reverberates on the means of containment(the cartridge, barrel, chamber, etc). There is a nickname for the event called "ringing". Some smokeless powders can do it too, part of the reason why there are "minimum loads" for them - not just the chance of lodging a built in the barrel.

 

With smokeless powder there is air in the cartridge 99% of the time and nothing happens except the bullet leaves the barrel. With black powder it will be an explosion if you have air in the cartridge!

 

Do you know of any first hand accounts of that happening?

How would a little extra air cause that?

What is the reason it happens?

Does it happen with muzzle loaders and cap and ball revolvers? I've certainly seen guys use their ball starter and forgot to ram the charge with a muzzle loader. Nothing happened except it was a weak shot.

 

Been hearing about it for years and no I don't have any first hand knowledge and don't want to find out. All I can say to your comment is to have at it and you can tell us.

 

I've just read a few (several) commentaries on the subject including one by somebody who claims to be a BP manufacturer. The comments are all over the place, but the closest I found to a first hand account is "I knew a guy." One might have said "I was there," but they didn't say they watched the guy load the gun. A double load can certainly cause a bad day, and might look like a short stroke ramming. FYI: I always mark the ram rods for my smoke sticks. The tape doesn't set were its supposed to, and that's the end of my hunt/match. I can pull bullets at home.

While I am quite certain your suggestion was mean to be along the lines of, "Go ahead and blow yourself up. If you live tell us about it," I might just go ahead try it and risk blowing up a gun. Sandbags and a string are pretty amazing. I have no particular attachment to this H&R revolver. Once I get it to index and lock properly it might be a good test subject with progressively bigger air gaps loaded in each chamber. Right now its biggest risk is bad indexing with no lockup causing a bullet strike on the side of the barrel. I guess I have to fix it before I can break it. Its certainly something to think about. I just always have issues when I see something often repeated without much evidence. I want to know why.

FYI: Starline only has H&R mag brass cut down for the SW long brass right now. Because of its geometry I don't think it could be cut down further for SW. (internal taper)

 

Where are @Grizzley1 and @sharps4590 ?

 

Do they have first hand experience with this claim about guns going boom from to much air, or are they the guys who usually brow beat the new guy for asking questions about "settled science." LOL.

Seriously I'm not denying it might be a reality. I just want to know how and why.

 

No I'm not a guy who witnessed the guy who damaged his gun by leaving an air gap in between the power and ball. I'm a guy who makes and re-bores muzzle loading barrels and black powder cartridge including re boring barrels that have been bulged by leaving an air space between the bullet and charge on a black powder gun.
When you fire a gun with the bullet not lightly compressing the bp charge the bullet is not a projectile, it's a barrel obstruction. The burn begins at the rear of the charge and the unburned powder moves forward at high velocity until it hits the base of the bullet. And that causes the bullet to expand. Sometimes it doesn't do anything and sometimes it bulges the barrel and sometimes it can crack the barrel wide open.
If the bullet is compressing the charge, it and the powder charge are both moving down bore at the same velocity.
On bp cartridges when you don't want to shoot a full case of powder it's pretty easy to use a filler to take up the extra space.

 

Why would either of us brow beat someone with a question? No one is born knowing everything...or anything, for that matter.

Can't explain it any better than Dave did. I haven't seen a ruptured barrel but have seen a few bulged/ringed barrels from an air space between ball/bullet and powder, in both muzzleloaders and cartridge firearms.

 

Vic, I've seen three ruptured barrels, one was a modern made barrel with a split running longitudinally about six inches long, one was on an original rifle Joe wanted me to restore, the crack was under the wood where it couldn't be seen until I removed the barrel and the third looked like something you'd see on a Bugs Bunny cartoon where the remains of the barrel looked like a peeled banana. That one is still hanging on the wall in the store office. That one was fired remotely with a 50 foot lanyard because it was done on purpose to prove a point and to create a display illustrating what can happen when things go bad. I've seen about a dozen or more that were ringed or bulged. Will it happen every time you load a ball off the powder? Probably not, but it could happen anytime you do it so why take the chance especially when it's easy enough to make sure the bullet is on the powder charge or in the case of a bp cartridge the case is full or has a filler if it is a light charge.

Bob no one is going to brow beat you for asking a question, we just want you to be safe when you take it out to the range. Asking questions and getting answers helps keep you safe, right?