[Grizzley1]

I was talking to friend about this gun and came up with an explanation of sorts. It may have been an experimental gun given to a person in a position to influence matters in military affairs. The gun could be a one of a kind intended as a military weapon but built in sporting form for hunting use by the intended individual, In the US this occurred to some extent even in the arsenals and manufactures. Colt often gave presentation guns to individuals to influence large purchases in the US and abroad.

This gun has a definite Germanic flavor to it's style and it's a full stocked hunting or jaeger style reminiscent of the 1830's.

So, where does that lead?

Johan Nicholas von Dreyse invented the needle gun and possibly the bolt action mechanism in the 1830's and submitted the final design to the Prussian army in 1836, it went into production as the model 1841.

Could this be one of the earlier prototypes of the Dreyse needle gun?

Or someone else's attempt at copying his design?

Food for thought.

 

[sharps4590]

Generally the proofs are on the bottom of the barrel near the breech. Given the age of the piece all one may be able to discern is country of origin and approximate date of manufacture, if there is even any marks present. I'm inclined to agree that it is some type of needle gun, has a Germanic or Belgian appearance, the 1870's seems likely and its intended use was as a sporting rifle. Given the firing mechanism the lock time had to be slow, comparatively speaking. That is an unusual piece and I don't believe I've ever seen another like it.

 

[SC205]

Additional pictures of the front and rear of the bolt. You might be able to make out one of the stamped "28"s on the back of the bolt.

Generally the proofs are on the bottom of the barrel near the breech. .

Would the mark be visible or would the barrel need to be removed to see it?

 

[deadin]

would the barrel need to be removed to see it?

Just from the stock.

 

[Buffalochip]

It is looking more and more like Swiss origin to me. Mikebiker is right about the sight, although the Vetterli bolt action was developed by the Swiss and produced later by the Italians. The Vetterili cartridge-firing bolt actions also had two strikers or firing pins and were rimfire. From your last picture of the bolt face, it appears this gun may have had two striker or needles? Many were later converted to center fire by the simple addition of a central firing pin. And I was wrong about the half-stock--found my glasses...

This barrel is pinned on. It can be removed by carefully pushing the pins out--probably from left to right as you look down on the action-- and then removing whatever screw may be securing the the breech. If you don't think you can do it without buggering screws or marring the wood, don't mess with it.

The NRA museum sight does give addresses and names the curators. You may have to use snail mail, but some pics, a link to this site, and your email address may spark an answer.

 

[SC205]

Unfortunately no real markings on the bottom of the barrel except for additional 28 stamps.
One thing that was strange to me is that I heard something sliding back and forth in the butt end of the stock. Unfortunately I could only remove one of the two screws in the butt plate. The other a little too corroded. But I was able to remove the bottom one and peak under the plate. There is a spring attached to the middle of the Butt plate. I could only see about 1/8" of it but definitely a spring like metal coil.

 

[hrf]

Send your pics to Alan of the "Littlegun" website: http://www.littlegun.info/

He just might recognize it.

 

[Grizzley1]

Needle guns were notorious for breaking the needles and springs, you might have a spare set in the butt stock.

 

[Grizzley1]

Something else I'm noticing, the barrel appears to be swamped, this thing just keeps getting more and more interesting.

 

[Mikebiker]

The Swiss Vetterli was issued with a spare firing pin under the buttplate. Most are still there. I have taken apart several of them and found it usually still there.

 

[SC205]

Something else I'm noticing, the barrel appears to be swamped, this thing just keeps getting more and more interesting.

NOOB here what does swamped mean?

 

[SC205]

The Swiss Vetterli was issued with a spare firing pin under the buttplate. Most are still there. I have taken apart several of them and found it usually still there.

Certainly might be what I hear, it does sound metallic, but no way I can remove the upper screw without destroying it.

 

[gdmoody]

NOOB here what does swamped mean?

I am an oldie here and I was wondering the same thing.

 

[Grizzley1]

The barrel will taper smaller from the breech to about two thirds of it's length and then flare outwards to the muzzle, they did it to remove weight from the forward part of the barrel yet still leave the muzzle diameter large enough so that the front sight wasn't too low to shoot accurately at close range.

It's kind of common on Jaeger rifles up into the early to mid 1800's and on the American long rifles descended from them.

It's just another small clue to the guns age.

 

[SC205]

Send your pics to Alan of the "Littlegun" website: http://www.littlegun.info/

He just might recognize it.

Sent him an email. Thanks.
I also put full resolution pics at http://www.angelsonly.com/gallery/index.php/Old-Rifle
Not sure if they are any help from what I posted here.

 

[Buffalochip]

Presence of spare parts under the butt plate tells me that there were enough of these guns produced that there was a know tendency to break parts. Somebody, somewhere out there knows it's origin. But IMHO, it is looking more and more to be of Swiss origin.

 

[deadin]

I don't think those two holes are for firing pins. For one thing that would assume a rim-fire cartridge of some sort. This rifle does not have any accommodation for extracting spent brass.
I'm still with a needle fire.
If you are basing that it may be Swiss because of the rear sight, here is a Belgian Target pistol with a very similar sight. These were common all over Europe.

 

[Grizzley1]

I gotta agree with Deadin, the bolt face appears to protrude into the chamber to seal it and there is no extractor and I'm betting no recess inside the chamber for a rimmed cartridge's rim, this looks to be designed for a combustible paper cartridge or a rocket ball rather than a rimfire round.

 

[Buffalochip]

I don't think anyone is arguing against a needle fire--simply pointing out that twin firing pins, or needles in this case, along with spare parts under the butt plate are characteristics shared with the Swiss Vettrelli. But the most telling may be the stamp on the stock--looks like a Swiss shield to me.

Check out http://www.swissrifles.com/proofs/ and look at the images for "Stamp on the Buttstock" and "Acceptance stamp for wooden parts (Vettrelli)"

 

[SC205]

Similar but not exact. There are 3 on the stock and the one in the picture was the best. Certainly nothing in the center of the stamps. But it has been suggested to me by others that they may be the key to identifying who produced it.