[PaulG71]

The hunting season actually IS one of the reasons I plan to get into BP (eventually). In both states I hunt, the woods are just absolutely crawling with hunters during the reg'lar gun deer season. I have had a couple scary experiences over the years (hearing bullets). ML is 10 days of nothing but ML guys.

 

[bmonroe]

The hunting season actuallyin IS one of the reasons I plan to get into BP (eventually). In both states I hunt, the woods are just absolutely crawling with hunters during the reg'lar gun deer season. I have had a couple scary experiences over the years (hearing bullets). ML is 10 days of nothing but ML guys.

Just for the grins and giggles look at the traditional muzzle loaders. 1 In 48 twist is great for both patched round ball and conicals. Also, casting your own projectiles is both inexpensive and relaxing.

 

[gvw3]

Illinois considers them firearms. I don't think we had to do a call to the ATF but we have to fill the form out for the stores records. We have a waiting period also. Most states and the Federal government do not consider the firearms.

I was thinking If your state does not regulate black powder guns why can't you carry them open?

 

[PaulG71]

I think you CAN carry open (or even concealed??) if your state does not call them firearms.

And most do not. Anyway, the feds do not.

IL, of course, is one of the worst states for guns. I think NY, CA, and IL are the worst three. (There is no doubt that if the powers-that-be there had their way no citizens would have weapons of any kind.)

 

[PaulG71]

Of course, if you are dumb enough to go walking around with a BP gun in a state that prohibits open carry you are very likely to get arrested anyway. Cops generally don't know the law well - they arrest and let the DA work it out.

 

[Buffalochip]

Came across this:
http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2013/01/can-felons-legally-own-muzzle-loading-guns.html

.

 

[howlnmad]

My opinoin, a modern bp gun is for those who want the extended hunting season without the history behind it.

Sounds damn good to me. Especially when there is an extra deer or two in the freezer come January.

 

[St8LineGunsmith]

Although the C&B revolvers are not classed as a 'firearm" and they can be shipped directly to the customer without a third party FFL transfer they are still recognized by some states as a firearm and still requires a permit to carry so be careful and study your state gun laws regardless.

 

[St8LineGunsmith]

It's all nothing but crazy.
But I would not rely on what Cabela's or any of the others do.
They all have different rules (the stores do) about what they can ship where. And in many cases it is based on a total misunderstanding of the law.
California will allow, and Cabela's will ship an 1858 Remington replica to anyone in California, no ffl, but Cabela's wont ship it to about 7 other states. Figure that one.
dc

THese are all states that have passed unconstitutional gun laws that restrict their residents from receiving any type of weapon in the mail because of their anti gun agenda.
now I am sure you can buy on line if you live in these states but has to be shipped to an FFL to transfer it to the individual and probably requires a background check to purchase it.

 

[texas python]

Hello gents (& ladies),

Are the majority of new-manufacture black powder guns - such as the Thompson Center Arms 6684 Break Open 50 and the Traditions Vortek .50-Caliber Pistol - classified as "firearms" under federal law?

The federal regs say basically that any muzzleloader that doesn't have a receiver that can take (other) barrels that work with rimfire/centerfire cartridges and also doesn't use a modern primer for ignition are NOT firearms.

I am new to the sport and for personal reasons would prefer to own guns that are NOT firearms according to the federal def.

Thanks!

I'm really late on this reply but if you are correct on the regs. I would be careful, if it states "OR DOESN'T USE A MODERN PRIMER" then ANY muzzleloader that uses a 209 primer COULD be considered using a MODERN PRIMER when compared to rifles like mine that require a cap that has to be seated on a nipple. I would contact the ATF several times and see if you get the same answer each time. I trust no one person answers when it comes to the GOVERNMENT!!!!
With that said, my buddy just bought a new muzzleloader that takes the 209 primer and there was no paperwork at the point of purchase. Confusing at the least.

 

[soundguy]

That's probably so they can charge a criminal with more stuff. If a flintlock is "not a gun", then robbing someone using one would not be "armed robbery". But if it is fired during the robbery, you can charge them with "use of a firearm during the commission of a felony".

a primitive weapon like a ml becomes a firearm if used in a crime

 

[Nor Cal Mikie]

In California, muzzleloaders, be it cap or flint lock are NOT classed as firearms. No FFL needed and they can be shipped from anywhere.
The Savage ML can be converter to center fire (so I've heard) so things can be pretty sticky in that area.

 

[Buffalochip]

I think everyone needs to remember that firearm or nonfirearm--in the eyes of the law MLs are still considered weapons. Carry it in your pocket concealed and you can still get in a lot of trouble. P0int a BB gun at a cop, or anyone for that matter, and you might end up dead. It isn't just whether or not it is considered a firearm, it is whether or not it is considered a weapon.

 

[howlnmad]

In California, muzzleloaders, be it cap or flint lock are NOT classed as firearms. No FFL needed and they can be shipped from anywhere.
The Savage ML can be converter to center fire (so I've heard) so things can be pretty sticky in that area.

Actually, I believe that to be inaccurate information. The Savage model 10ML is capable of shooting either BP or smokeless powder. It still uses a 209 primer system.

 

[gvw3]

In Illinois all black powder rifles, pistols, cannons whatever are considered firearms. We still had to fill out the fed forms to buy them. I don't think they had to call the feds to get an ok but we still filled out the forms. I know there was a 24 hour hold on my rifles and a 3 day on my pistols. Pretty silly as how many crimes are committed with an 1851 navy?

 

[soundguy]

in 1851, probably a few

 

[oldfart64]

probab

You are correct about the blackpowder arms. My brother was convicted for a felony several years ago. He cannot own any firearms but he has several muzzle loaders and black powder revolvers.

depends on state, in WA a felon may not have any firearms (including muzzle loaders) unless his rights for firearms have been reinstated by a superior court.

 

[Oldeyes]

A FFL friend of mine has been wrangling with this issue of, "from an ATFE Federal perspective which black powder firearms need to go through the FFL's bound book and be logged out via a form 4473 and processed via a NICS check?" The most up to date ATFE listing of which commercially available black powder rifles need to be logged into the FFL's bound book and processed via a 4473 and NICS check is located at https://www.atf.gov/content/what-qualifies-antique-firearm As my FFL friend also had a Remington 700 bolt action black powder rifle in stock (similar to the Savage bolt action black powder model), I suggested that he add that rifle to the ATFE bound book/4473/NICS check processing list. As far as I remember, the current ATFE web site listing covering this topic is the same one which as been up there for several years.

 

[gdmoody]

A FFL friend of mine has been wrangling with this issue of, "from an ATFE Federal perspective which black powder firearms need to go through the FFL's bound book and be logged out via a form 4473 and processed via a NICS check?" The most up to date ATFE listing of which commercially available black powder rifles need to be logged into the FFL's bound book and processed via a 4473 and NICS check is located at https://www.atf.gov/content/what-qualifies-antique-firearm As my FFL friend also had a Remington 700 bolt action black powder rifle in stock (similar to the Savage bolt action black powder model), I suggested that he add that rifle to the ATFE bound book/4473/NICS check processing list. As far as I remember, the current ATFE web site listing covering this topic is the same one which as been up there for several years.

Why would there be a need for that Remington 700 black powder rifle that you mention to be entered into a bound book. Those can be bought at those warehouse stores. As a matter of fact, I bought my Remington 700ML at the local Sam's Club. Sam's clubs, or at least the many I have been in, do not sell guns.

 

[Oldeyes]

As per the information contained in the ATF document link that I provided in my original post, the Remington 700 black powder rifle would seem to me to fall under the ATF category of a weapon incorporating a firearm receiver that can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock or any combination thereof. From an ATF standpoint that would seem to necessitate the Remington 700 black powder rifle being tracked through the FFL's bound book and the form 4473 and NICS authorization process. While I can appreciate the fact that the Remington 700 black powder rifle is currently being sold in apparent contravention of that "by the letter of their regulation" modern firearm classification, that would appear to me to be an ATF administrative error. The seemingly unresolved conundrum nature of this ongoing ATF antique firearm classification vs. modern firearm classification is the exact issue which drove my FFL friend's original confusion.