Better view of the stamped marking.

 

Interesting! I'm thinking some sort of a needle-fire. What does the front of the bolt look like? Does it have a really long firing pin (or is it broken off)? There doesn't seem to be any extractor and most Needle-fire cartridges were self consuming so there wasn't anything to extract. No luck with the "shield" mark in any of my books.
Have you had it out of the stock? If so, are there any hidden marks?
I take it that the "handle" cocks the mechanism and opens and closes the bolt. Does it fold away after cocking but before firing?

 

Thanks for replying. The firing pin is missing or broken, nothing protrudes from the from the front of the bolt. I will try to get a picture of it. The only marks are on the metal parts "28" I have had it apart.
here is the video that should show the bolt firing mechanism a little better.

 

It has to be an early form of a needle fire gun but it's something I've never seen before.

Sorry I can't be of any more help that that but thanks for sharing it with us and welcome to TFF.

Here's hoping somebody that hangs out on the forum recognizes what this is and can help you identify it.

 

Well, that's a poser!
I still believe it's a needle fire with the needle missing. (Not uncommon as they corroded easily.) Other than that, I'm stumped.
I will keep digging, but if it is in my library I don't remember seeing it.........

 

I'm in awe. Forty-nine folks have looked, and no solid answer. This is a first, in excess of three years, for me. I'll be back.

 

I appreciate the efforts. Sort of the response I had in the past but I was hoping the video would help ring a bell for someone. I am hopeful.
Happy New Years.

 

It might be a one of a kind gun built to a private customer's specs or as an experiment or prototype by the gun builder, that 28 could be it's serial number, if so there might be a few more of them tucked away in collections somewhere but probably not very many of them.

It looks more like a sporting type rifle rather than a military model.

 

I have wondered if it could have been an experiment or prototype that just didn't have any benefits to commercialize it.

You might contact the curator of the NRA museum in Fairfax, VA. From the looks of it, I'd guess its is from the first half of the 19th century. I don't understand why a needle fire gun, which used self contained cartridges, would have a ramrod, although the rod shown has either been cut down or does not belong to this gun. The rifling is deep and of the type that would use a patch. The stock looks like it is form a mid 18th century halfstock muzzleloader. I suspect it was cobbled together using available parts and is an early prototype that didn't make the grade or as someone's one-off design.
Let us know what you find out.

I will see if I can find a contact for the curator and send them the info to see if they can help. I agree the rod does not look long enough to do anything.

Thanks all for the help.

 

You might contact the curator of the NRA museum in Fairfax, VA. From the looks of it, I'd guess its is from the first half of the 19th century. I don't understand why a needle fire gun, which used self contained cartridges, would have a ramrod, although the rod shown has either been cut down or does not belong to this gun. The rifling is deep and of the type that would use a patch. The stock looks like it is form a mid 19th century halfstock muzzleloader. I suspect it was cobbled together using available parts and is an early prototype that didn't make the grade or as someone's one-off design.
Let us know what you find out.

 

I don't understand why a needle fire gun, which used self contained cartridges, would have a ramrod.

Technically it isn't a ramrod, it's a wiping rod, or at least half of the wiping rod. This gun would have used fulminate priming and black powder propellant with all it's fouling and corrosive properties, I'd guess it used ammunition something similar to the old Volcanic Arms Company's rocket ball patented in the late 1840's and used in their lever guns in the 1850's.

 

I'm an Antiques Roadshow freak. Folks bring in one-of-a-kind stuff fairly regular. Most of the time it's referred to as 'folk art' or some such, and price it based on that. Then there's those folks who bring in something nobody's ever seen before. Many of these can be 'attributed' to someone who had given a design a shot, but decided to pass on making anymore. Yet, they are worth major bucks.

Is it possible / probable, this rifle could belong to the latter case. And what would it take ( dollars ) to research something never seen before. It's no secret that I enjoy looking at old rifles, usable or not. I may run across something someday ( very optimistic ), and have enough curiosity to spend a couple bucks.

 

Doesn't seem to be any links to email a curator I suspect that they might get a few too many emails about old guns if there were.

 

My best guess would be a European experimental gun or a prototype dating to the 1870s. It is way to well built to be cobbled together. The stock was made for this gun as the perfect fit testifies to. The back half looks military while the front sure looks like a sporting rifle as there is no provision for a bayonet. The rear sight style is European military as is the trigger guard. It has many mysteries to be answered. A look on the inside may reveal some answers? Was it ever proofed?

 

I have had it apart and didn't see any additional markings.
How would I know if it had been "proofed" ?

 

I have never seen a rifle like this but I think I have seen that rear sight before. Can't remember where.

 

Nearly all European guns have small marks indicating the gun was test fired and passed. US gun do not have National marks but some have manufactures marks. A European gun that was a prototype may not have gone through the proof house as it was only intended as a model and not a live fire weapon. This gun sure looks like it is European to me. It is a real mixture of styles and different then anything I have ever seen.

 

The sight is very similar to those seen on Italian Vetterli rifles.

 

I was talking to friend about this gun and came up with an explanation of sorts. It may have been an experimental gun given to a person in a position to influence matters in military affairs. The gun could be a one of a kind intended as a military weapon but built in sporting form for hunting use by the intended individual, In the US this occurred to some extent even in the arsenals and manufactures. Colt often gave presentation guns to individuals to influence large purchases in the US and abroad.

 

This gun has a definite Germanic flavor to it's style and it's a full stocked hunting or jaeger style reminiscent of the 1830's.

So, where does that lead?

Johan Nicholas von Dreyse invented the needle gun and possibly the bolt action mechanism in the 1830's and submitted the final design to the Prussian army in 1836, it went into production as the model 1841.

Could this be one of the earlier prototypes of the Dreyse needle gun?

Or someone else's attempt at copying his design?

Food for thought.

 

Generally the proofs are on the bottom of the barrel near the breech. Given the age of the piece all one may be able to discern is country of origin and approximate date of manufacture, if there is even any marks present. I'm inclined to agree that it is some type of needle gun, has a Germanic or Belgian appearance, the 1870's seems likely and its intended use was as a sporting rifle. Given the firing mechanism the lock time had to be slow, comparatively speaking. That is an unusual piece and I don't believe I've ever seen another like it.

 

Additional pictures of the front and rear of the bolt. You might be able to make out one of the stamped "28"s on the back of the bolt.

Generally the proofs are on the bottom of the barrel near the breech. .

Would the mark be visible or would the barrel need to be removed to see it?

 

would the barrel need to be removed to see it?

Just from the stock.

 

It is looking more and more like Swiss origin to me. Mikebiker is right about the sight, although the Vetterli bolt action was developed by the Swiss and produced later by the Italians. The Vetterili cartridge-firing bolt actions also had two strikers or firing pins and were rimfire. From your last picture of the bolt face, it appears this gun may have had two striker or needles? Many were later converted to center fire by the simple addition of a central firing pin. And I was wrong about the half-stock--found my glasses...

This barrel is pinned on. It can be removed by carefully pushing the pins out--probably from left to right as you look down on the action-- and then removing whatever screw may be securing the the breech. If you don't think you can do it without buggering screws or marring the wood, don't mess with it.

The NRA museum sight does give addresses and names the curators. You may have to use snail mail, but some pics, a link to this site, and your email address may spark an answer.

 

Unfortunately no real markings on the bottom of the barrel except for additional 28 stamps.
One thing that was strange to me is that I heard something sliding back and forth in the butt end of the stock. Unfortunately I could only remove one of the two screws in the butt plate. The other a little too corroded. But I was able to remove the bottom one and peak under the plate. There is a spring attached to the middle of the Butt plate. I could only see about 1/8" of it but definitely a spring like metal coil.

 

Send your pics to Alan of the "Littlegun" website: http://www.littlegun.info/

He just might recognize it.

 

Sent him an email. Thanks.
I also put full resolution pics at http://www.angelsonly.com/gallery/index.php/Old-Rifle
Not sure if they are any help from what I posted here.

 

Needle guns were notorious for breaking the needles and springs, you might have a spare set in the butt stock.

 

Something else I'm noticing, the barrel appears to be swamped, this thing just keeps getting more and more interesting.

 

NOOB here what does swamped mean?

 

The Swiss Vetterli was issued with a spare firing pin under the buttplate. Most are still there. I have taken apart several of them and found it usually still there.

 

Certainly might be what I hear, it does sound metallic, but no way I can remove the upper screw without destroying it.