You are correct about the blackpowder arms. My brother was convicted for a felony several years ago. He cannot own any firearms but he has several muzzle loaders and black powder revolvers.

 

probab

depends on state, in WA a felon may not have any firearms (including muzzle loaders) unless his rights for firearms have been reinstated by a superior court.

 

Be careful though, while Feds don't list them as firearms, there are states that do and restrict their sale just as they do standard firearms.

 

Mo', some states restrict their sale but they are still not classified as firearms federally.

I am not a felon, but want to own black powder guns not classified as firearms for other reasons.

Nobody has answered my question yet. The ATF rules DO say some muzzleloaders are firearms - if they have a receiver that can take centerfire barrels or use centerfire ammo etc. - it is confusing.

Does anyone know if the two guns I mentioned are safe in that respect?

See this link:

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/collectors.html

(I am not a felon but I feel for those who are - if the gov had their way I think every citizen would be a felon eventually. The USA has more "criminals" than any society in history!)

 

Then the number of victims created by those felons must be enormous.They're the ones I feel for.

 

Raven, I guess you missed the point. And I don't want to derail the thread But, here is what I was talking about: there are millions of felons who never committed any violent crime. I knew a guy who was forced to plead guilty to a felony for recording his wife cheating on him in his own home - recording someone having sex without their permission was a felony (in his state). The poor guy had his life ruined by the feminist prosecutor. This kind of thing happens all the time - 99% of criminal cases are plea-bargained. Tons and tons of felons who only every smoked pot too (something I've never done in my life, incidentally).

Of course, there are also all kinds of scum in our decadent society who need to be locked up for a long time, and the amazing irony is many of them get back on the streets in a hurry.

FYI, I am a political conservative.

But, please, if you want to discuss this further, start another thread. I just want to find out what black powder guns I can buy the feds do not define as firearms! Thank you all.

 

Neither of those guns is a firearm according to federal law.

An easy way to check is to find reputable online retailers that sell what you are looking to buy (Cabela's is a good choice for this). If they will sell it to you and ship directly to you without an FFL involved, then it's not legally a gun.

 

(I am not a felon but I feel for those who are - if the gov had their way I think every citizen would be a felon eventually. The USA has more "criminals" than any society in history!)

Raven, I guess you missed the point

My response to your remarks in regard to feeling for felons, was in response to your remarks. Not mine. I did not go off topic, it was included in your own post. You apparently felt a need to include it for one reason or another.

As far as missed the point, you didn't expound one way or the other so how could I have missed anything? There was noting to miss.

No, I don't want to start another Thread to discuss who should or who shouldn't be in prison. Neither one of us are qualified to speak on it. So all it would serve, is to demonstrate a difference of opinion. A waste of time, IMO.

 

Josh - Thanks! I had actually kinda figured that out - I noticed that you can't add centerfire guns to the cart on your site.

(IMO every 2nd Amendment enthusiast should have one or two of these weapons, in case the gun banners ever have a major victory come out of nowhere. After 8 years of hell under O we are most likely gonna get stuck with Billary 2 next. If 10 years ago people would have been told that we would have an open border with Mexico with hundreds of thousands of illegals freely crossing after being ENCOURAGED by the U.S. govt in their home nations, no one would have believed it: NO ONE! Yet here we are. So, don't say it can't happen. Sure, they may ban muzzleloaders too but since this would require a redefinition of firearm at the federal level it is much less likely.)

 

You think?

In 1988 the Feds' definition of a firearm, included (in part) "made after 1888". The next year they redefined it. Made after 1889. Next year, new definition. Made after 1890. That was the consistency. Had to be 100 years old to be "not a firearm".

Along comes 1999. Still a hundred years old - "before 1899". Next year, 2000. Did the definition stay with the 100 years old thing? Did the date change t0 1900? Hell no. Stayed at 1899. Been 1899 for fifteen years now.

They redefine terms constantly.

I believe that every "2nd Amendment enthusiast" should own any damn type of gun he wants, and if the government bans some, and attempts to confiscate his guns, he should open fire on the "thieves in uniform". Maybe if that happened, California, New Jersey, New York and Connecticut would not have such draconian laws.

I doubt everyone agrees with me. But that's okay.

 

You should have a muzzleloader of some sort just because they are a heck of a lot of fun and the slow rate of fire makes you focus on your mechanics of shooting a lot more.

 

That and I feel burnt blackpower smells a heck of lot better than burnt smokeless.

 

Hasn't the definition stayed mostly constant since 1968?

In point of fact, a ML doesn't have to be actually made before a certain time, but only a rough replica of such a device, correct? Almost none of the current crop of new-production MLs which are not firearms by federal definition are even replicas unless I'm mistaken - and I might be mistaken so please correct me if so. I'm new to black powder.

IL has a lot of draconian laws too. This is a fact: It will only get worse. American is becoming a police state, and in a police state every citizen is a "potential criminal", and in a police state the populace must be unarmed.

 

We have a strange law when it comes to flint lock firearms.
They are not a firearm until they are discharged. After being discharged they revert back to being a non firearm.
Try and figure that one out.

 

That's probably so they can charge a criminal with more stuff. If a flintlock is "not a gun", then robbing someone using one would not be "armed robbery". But if it is fired during the robbery, you can charge them with "use of a firearm during the commission of a felony".

 

a primitive weapon like a ml becomes a firearm if used in a crime

 

It's all nothing but crazy.
But I would not rely on what Cabela's or any of the others do.
They all have different rules (the stores do) about what they can ship where. And in many cases it is based on a total misunderstanding of the law.
California will allow, and Cabela's will ship an 1858 Remington replica to anyone in California, no ffl, but Cabela's wont ship it to about 7 other states. Figure that one.
dc

 

It seems like Cabela's has it right considering FEDERAL regs.

To the feds, almost all MLs are not firearms - only the handful that can take centerfire barrels are.

However, any ML that uses a 209 shotgun primer can be bought by someone prohibited from owning (i.e. felons) but such a person could not use it because shotgun primers are "ammunition", while #10 and #11 ML caps are NOT ammunition.

It sure is rather crazy.

What the feds really want are as many people as possible unable to own guns. Why they exempt MLs is difficult to explain. Probably it would only take one sicko to commit a murder with a ML and it will all change (even tho he or she could stab someone to death or bludgeon but no one will talk about banning knifes or hammers...).

 

It's a matter of the ignition method and ammo type being considered obsolete

 

What about this new Elecra rifle with electronic ignition? No primers at all! I'm surprised it took somebody this long to build one of those, actually.

Looks like a great gun.

 

What about this new Elecra rifle with electronic ignition? No primers at all! I'm surprised it took somebody this long to build one of those, actually.

Looks like a great gun.

If you want a muzzleloader I would suggest a purcussion cap or flintlock firing mech. If you really want a modern gun then just buy one.
My opinoin, a modern bp gun is for those who want the extended hunting season without the history behind it.

 

My opinoin, a modern bp gun is for those who want the extended hunting season without the history behind it.

Sounds damn good to me. Especially when there is an extra deer or two in the freezer come January.

 

The hunting season actually IS one of the reasons I plan to get into BP (eventually). In both states I hunt, the woods are just absolutely crawling with hunters during the reg'lar gun deer season. I have had a couple scary experiences over the years (hearing bullets). ML is 10 days of nothing but ML guys.

 

The hunting season actuallyin IS one of the reasons I plan to get into BP (eventually). In both states I hunt, the woods are just absolutely crawling with hunters during the reg'lar gun deer season. I have had a couple scary experiences over the years (hearing bullets). ML is 10 days of nothing but ML guys.

Just for the grins and giggles look at the traditional muzzle loaders. 1 In 48 twist is great for both patched round ball and conicals. Also, casting your own projectiles is both inexpensive and relaxing.

 

Illinois considers them firearms. I don't think we had to do a call to the ATF but we have to fill the form out for the stores records. We have a waiting period also. Most states and the Federal government do not consider the firearms.

I was thinking If your state does not regulate black powder guns why can't you carry them open?

 

I think you CAN carry open (or even concealed??) if your state does not call them firearms.

And most do not. Anyway, the feds do not.

IL, of course, is one of the worst states for guns. I think NY, CA, and IL are the worst three. (There is no doubt that if the powers-that-be there had their way no citizens would have weapons of any kind.)

 

Of course, if you are dumb enough to go walking around with a BP gun in a state that prohibits open carry you are very likely to get arrested anyway. Cops generally don't know the law well - they arrest and let the DA work it out.

 

Came across this:
http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2013/01/can-felons-legally-own-muzzle-loading-guns.html

.

 

Although the C&B revolvers are not classed as a 'firearm" and they can be shipped directly to the customer without a third party FFL transfer they are still recognized by some states as a firearm and still requires a permit to carry so be careful and study your state gun laws regardless.

 

It's all nothing but crazy.
But I would not rely on what Cabela's or any of the others do.
They all have different rules (the stores do) about what they can ship where. And in many cases it is based on a total misunderstanding of the law.
California will allow, and Cabela's will ship an 1858 Remington replica to anyone in California, no ffl, but Cabela's wont ship it to about 7 other states. Figure that one.
dc

THese are all states that have passed unconstitutional gun laws that restrict their residents from receiving any type of weapon in the mail because of their anti gun agenda.
now I am sure you can buy on line if you live in these states but has to be shipped to an FFL to transfer it to the individual and probably requires a background check to purchase it.

 

I'm really late on this reply but if you are correct on the regs. I would be careful, if it states "OR DOESN'T USE A MODERN PRIMER" then ANY muzzleloader that uses a 209 primer COULD be considered using a MODERN PRIMER when compared to rifles like mine that require a cap that has to be seated on a nipple. I would contact the ATF several times and see if you get the same answer each time. I trust no one person answers when it comes to the GOVERNMENT!!!!
With that said, my buddy just bought a new muzzleloader that takes the 209 primer and there was no paperwork at the point of purchase. Confusing at the least.